Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 838950 times)

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1680 on: April 03, 2018, 12:34:30 AM »
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Actually, there is a very disturbing video that I can't locate at the moment that shows a group of hypoxic loopy skydivers literally rolling UNCONSCIOUS skydivers out the door of a Lockheed Constellation. Fortunately, these involuntary jumpers came to at lower altitudes and managed to deploy their canopies, no injuries or fatalities.

Here is something similar with two hypoxic jumpers making terrible decisions, skip to 2:09: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

377


You realize, 377, that you are doing NOTHING to dispel my anxieties about your avocation. Pushing hypoxic humans out of airplanes and hoping they "come to" at a lower altitude....

Yikes.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 12:35:40 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Lynn

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1681 on: April 03, 2018, 01:38:57 AM »
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?


Nobody else managed to track that plane successfully - weren't there a few amateurs who got called into service when the military jets lost track, or am I mis-remembering? If the latter is true, I don't think any accomplice would have been more successful. I'm still up in the air with accomplices, but even more so with radios, just because he was already carrying so much stuff, and he had to have one hand free to pull the cord. I think he had to have tossed some stuff before, stuff people wouldn't necessarily notice in the woods, like the battery, but like most else, that's just conjecture.

Side note: One thing I noticed while reading GG's book - maybe it's just the printing I have - in the map at the front of the book, the plane is pointed the wrong way. The V-23 Portland - Seattle route is shown - but the map shows the plane like it's heading from Portland to Seattle while also pointing out the jump zone, which was when it was flying away from Seattle. I kept staring at it in befuddlement until I clued in. Maybe that's standard on maps showing plane routes? Very confusing, anyway.

Also - was the placard inside or outside V-23? I'm sure it's been covered somewhere before, but I can't remember. Something that small could get carried many miles from where it fell off before getting near the ground, but does anyone more mathematically inclined have any clue approximately where the plane might have been when the placard fell? Is it reasonable to assume it was around the time he was trying to get the stairs down - likely as they descended? Sorry to be rehashing what I'm sure is old ground for some.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 02:02:36 AM by Lynn »
 

Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1682 on: April 03, 2018, 02:07:20 AM »
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?


Right, but nobody else managed to track that plane successfully - weren't there a few amateurs who got called into service when the military jets lost track, or am I mis-remembering? If the latter is true, I don't think any accomplice would have been more successful. I'm still up in the air with accomplices, but even more so with radios, just because he was already carrying so much stuff, and he had to have one hand free to pull the cord. I think he had to have tossed some stuff before, stuff people wouldn't necessarily notice in the woods, like the battery, but like most else, that's just conjecture.

Side note: One thing I noticed while reading GG's book - maybe it's just the printing I have - in the map at the front of the book, the plane is pointed the wrong way. The V-23 Portland - Seattle route is shown - but the map shows the plane like it's heading from Portland to Seattle while also pointing out the jump zone, which was when it was flying away from Seattle. I kept staring at it in befuddlement until I clued in. Maybe that's standard on maps showing plane routes? Very confusing, anyway.

Also - was the placard inside or outside V-23? I'm sure it's been covered somewhere before, but I can't remember. Something that small could get carried many miles from where it fell off before getting near the ground, but does anyone more mathematically inclined have any clue approximately where the plane might have been when the placard fell? Is it reasonable to assume it was around the time he was trying to get the stairs down - likely as they descended? Sorry to be rehashing what I'm sure is old ground for some.

I have made several posts on the subject of the placard.  One or two of those posts were made for Tom Kaye and are posted on his web site.  I think there is a more detailed discussion on the Flight Path Revisited thread on this subject and there are certainly other posts in other threads on this.

Basically, using a very conservative approach and estimates, the placard separated from the airliner somewhere west of the centerline of V-23.  Estimates for the time of separation is mainly a guess since the ATC radio transcripts do not have exact times for most of the flight south.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 02:19:18 AM by Robert99 »
 
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Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1683 on: April 03, 2018, 02:17:40 AM »
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?


Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.

The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."

Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight.  The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland.  V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).

There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E.  And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1684 on: April 03, 2018, 11:10:22 AM »
Bruce,
Disagree about the Rabbit hole, these things need to be explored if only to rule them out.

Lynn,
The placard came from a small emergency Airstair release door inside the plane next to the main control door panel. Not all 727's were equipped with that emergency release. My speculation is that "Cooper" had trouble lowering the Airstairs via the main control and used the emergency release. That emergency release door pulls completely off and has the placard attached. Activating the emergency release drops the Airstairs instantly by breaking the locks vs the hydraulic main control. I also believe that the small "plastic" door is still out in the woods somewhere, it separated from the attached placard. Robert99 is correct, the location of the Placard is known but without exact times ??
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 11:18:44 AM by FLYJACK »
 
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FLYJACK

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1685 on: April 03, 2018, 11:17:25 AM »
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?


Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.

The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."

Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight.  The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland.  V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).

There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E.  And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.

This is the problem, how could there be any co-ordination. I assume a potential "pilot" accomplice could track the plane and its location via the radio transmissions, but how could they co-ordinate a rendezvous on the ground. Too many variables.

Unless the FBI is withholding info, there is no way "Cooper" would have the accuracy to get close to a pre-determined location.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 11:42:21 AM by FLYJACK »
 
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georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1686 on: April 03, 2018, 04:19:19 PM »
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?


Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.

The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."

Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight.  The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland.  V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).

There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E.  And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.

This is the problem, how could there be any co-ordination. I assume a potential "pilot" accomplice could track the plane and its location via the radio transmissions, but how could they co-ordinate a rendezvous on the ground. Too many variables.

Unless the FBI is withholding info, there is no way "Cooper" would have the accuracy to get close to a pre-determined location.

No aircraft were seen by military and civilian controllers following or coordinating with 305 other than those authorised to be there. No ordinary small prop driven aircraft could have keep up with 305, but none were seen on radar in any event.

 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 04:21:57 PM by georger »
 
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FLYJACK

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1687 on: April 03, 2018, 04:27:02 PM »
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?


Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.

The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."

Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight.  The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland.  V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).

There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E.  And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.

This is the problem, how could there be any co-ordination. I assume a potential "pilot" accomplice could track the plane and its location via the radio transmissions, but how could they co-ordinate a rendezvous on the ground. Too many variables.

Unless the FBI is withholding info, there is no way "Cooper" would have the accuracy to get close to a pre-determined location.

No aircraft were seen by military and civilian controllers following or coordinating with 305 other than those authorised to be there. No ordinary small prop driven aircraft could have keep up with 305, but none were seen on radar in any event.

Sure, the Wally Foss Colbert story had a small plane circling. Theoretically, they may have been able to know where 305 was listening to radio transmissions, not chasing but circling ahead. But, no way the jumper could hit a predetermined target, unless they picked him in a helicopter I can't see how they could co-ordinate a small plane rendezvous at an airstrip.
 

Offline 377

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1688 on: April 03, 2018, 05:18:18 PM »
Flyjack wrote:
"Sure, the Wally Foss Colbert story had a small plane circling. Theoretically, they may have been able to know where 305 was listening to radio transmissions, not chasing but circling ahead. But, no way the jumper could hit a predetermined target, unless they picked him in a helicopter I can't see how they could co-ordinate a small plane rendezvous at an airstrip."

All true, and I agree 100%, BUT... look how close McCoy landed to his home. Look how close Heady landed to his car.

377



 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1689 on: April 03, 2018, 07:42:32 PM »
Let's not forget that McCoy basically flew the plane from the back...good reason he landed so accurately.....
 

Offline 377

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1690 on: April 03, 2018, 07:52:23 PM »
True, McCoy, a military pilot, was very active in controlling the flight path.

Heady not so much.

377
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1691 on: April 03, 2018, 09:39:09 PM »
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Bruce,
Disagree about the Rabbit hole, these things need to be explored if only to rule them out.



Jackster - I love Rabbit Holes! I often follow them. In fact, it seems I'm usually following YOU!
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1692 on: April 03, 2018, 09:42:04 PM »
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Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight.  The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland.  V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).

There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E.  And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.


Oops. My bad. Yes, all Victor 23 airway variants were west of the mountains.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1693 on: April 03, 2018, 09:49:17 PM »
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Sure, the Wally Foss Colbert story had a small plane circling....


Jackster - you keep mentioning a "Wally Foss" as the co-conspirator pilot that was part of the Colbert getaway scenario. However, I have never seen Colbert identify his "Wally" with a last name. But, in my research I have discovered that the most prominent small-plane pilot in the area was Wally Olson, owner of Evergreen field in Vancouver and the founding member of the Antique Airplane Club, which is now prominent in Scappoose, Oregon, where Wally and Coop and the Boys supposedly flew.

So who is Wally Foss?
 

FLYJACK

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1694 on: April 03, 2018, 10:55:42 PM »
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Sure, the Wally Foss Colbert story had a small plane circling....


Jackster - you keep mentioning a "Wally Foss" as the co-conspirator pilot that was part of the Colbert getaway scenario. However, I have never seen Colbert identify his "Wally" with a last name. But, in my research I have discovered that the most prominent small-plane pilot in the area was Wally Olson, owner of Evergreen field in Vancouver and the founding member of the Antique Airplane Club, which is now prominent in Scappoose, Oregon, where Wally and Coop and the Boys supposedly flew.

So who is Wally Foss?



The Wally in the "story" is Wally Foss NOT Wally Olson (d 1997 age 86), I think I read it somewhere (maybe it got removed/edited) or I just figured out but the pic and age 64 in 1997 is a match. He was a member of the Northwest Antique Airplane Club, the guy I am researching that matched the tie environment has a connection to that club but I haven't found any connection to Wally.

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« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 10:59:02 PM by FLYJACK »