Actually a Q&A category might be a good idea.

My post was in response to the above?

General Question:

In order for some of our suspects (specifically Wilson or Lepsy) to plan out this heist, they would need specific information about the 727 (flap settings, stall speed, knowledge of the aftstairs) that would not be available to the layman. In earlier discussions on this forum, I think it's been established that Cooper could not have been just "lucky".

So, what kinds of reference material could someone find on commercial jets in libraries? I've seen the fireman's guide to the 727, anything else?

General Question:

In order for some of our suspects (specifically Wilson or Lepsy) to plan out this heist, they would need specific information about the 727 (flap settings, stall speed, knowledge of the aftstairs) that would not be available to the layman. In earlier discussions on this forum, I think it's been established that Cooper could not have been just "lucky".

So, what kinds of reference material could someone find on commercial jets in libraries? I've seen the fireman's guide to the 727, anything else?

The information about the aft stairs was closely held.  The 727 modifications and test flights to permit dropping parachutists and cargo through the stairway was probably contracted for by the CIA either directly or through one of their aircraft operations such as Southern Air Transport.  And that work probably had a security classification and a "need to know" restriction.

If the Southeast Asia 727 operations were going to routinely lower and retract the aft stairs in flight, then they would probably have a special control panel for the stairs with more capability than the one for airline 727 stairs that were only operated when the aircraft was on the ground.  That could explain why Cooper had trouble operating the airliner stairs.  He had probably never seen that particular control panel before even if he had hands-on experience with the SEA 727s.

The aircraft performance type information was more readily available since the 727 had been in operation for more than five years at the time of the hijacking.  I personally don't know all the details, but in airline operation the number of flap settings were limited to perhaps five.  In the case of the 727, Cooper would have needed to know the setting at which the leading edge Krueger flaps and leading edge slats were deployed.  I don't personally know if they were deployed at a flap setting of 15 degrees or not, but Cooper would have needed that type of information from somewhere.

Bruce Smith:  You say: "The only person I know who says he was familiar with the metrics before Cooper was Sailshaw. He hasn't said he knew the 727 could be jumped in 1971, he just knows where that information was available at Boeing. Apparently there was an aft stairs lab at the Renton plant"

I say:   "It was logical to me in 1971 that it might be possible to open the airstairs and jump from a 727 in flight. That was the same thinking of Sheridan Peterson when he lived at my house ten years before Norjak. Bruce the aftstairs (lab?) were part of the Flight Controls Test Rig (FCTR) in the B-29 building on the East side of the Boeing Field in Seattle. The FCTR had all the hypraulic pipes and equipment in the same locations as on the plane including the Aft Airstairs that were functional and could be used to demonstrate how they worked too. Sheridan using his Boeing badge could have had entrance to the B-29 building once inside the fenced area around the building. John Yim was the Lead Engineer for the instrumentation work and was there full time along with Bob Harris the engineering aide. They would have let Sheridan play with and operated the airstairs when Sheridan worked at Boeing in the Manuals and Handbooks Group. There was no airstairs lab at the Renton plant that I know of and only the FCTR (B-29 hanger) that was under the control of the Mechanical Systems Test group that were in the 9-99 bldg on the West side of Boeing field."

Bob Sailshaw
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General Question:

In order for some of our suspects (specifically Wilson or Lepsy) to plan out this heist, they would need specific information about the 727 (flap settings, stall speed, knowledge of the aftstairs) that would not be available to the layman. In earlier discussions on this forum, I think it's been established that Cooper could not have been just "lucky".

So, what kinds of reference material could someone find on commercial jets in libraries? I've seen the fireman's guide to the 727, anything else?

The information about the aft stairs was closely held.  The 727 modifications and test flights to permit dropping parachutists and cargo through the stairway was probably contracted for by the CIA either directly or through one of their aircraft operations such as Southern Air Transport.  And that work probably had a security classification and a "need to know" restriction.

If the Southeast Asia 727 operations were going to routinely lower and retract the aft stairs in flight, then they would probably have a special control panel for the stairs with more capability than the one for airline 727 stairs that were only operated when the aircraft was on the ground.  That could explain why Cooper had trouble operating the airliner stairs.  He had probably never seen that particular control panel before even if he had hands-on experience with the SEA 727s.

The aircraft performance type information was more readily available since the 727 had been in operation for more than five years at the time of the hijacking.  I personally don't know all the details, but in airline operation the number of flap settings were limited to perhaps five.  In the case of the 727, Cooper would have needed to know the setting at which the leading edge Krueger flaps and leading edge slats were deployed.  I don't personally know if they were deployed at a flap setting of 15 degrees or not, but Cooper would have needed that type of information from somewhere.

I am still of the opinion:

The stairs go up - the stairs go down.

People are observed going in and out, through a hole, via the stairs.

Cooper asked the crew to lower the stairs and open the hole.

So he was relying on the crew to do it for him.

He didn't know better? He gives no evidence he knows anything further about the entire matter? He just orders that the stairs be lowered and the door opened, while still on the ground. He didn't do it himself - he asked the crew to do it for him. There is no evidence in any of the exchanges that he knew anything about how the stairs operated.

The 'mere fact' that he asked the stairs be opened while still on the ground at SEA has been misinterpreted to mean 'he intended to jump close to Seattle'! The two have nothing to do with each other! Then it turns out he doesn't know anything, can't get the stairs down, he has to learn by trial-and-error, time passes ... so if he had intended to jump while still close to Seattle his lack of knowledge about how to operate the stairs got in the way!

Moreover, he wasn't even ready to jump until much later!

The idea that he intended to jump near Seattle is myth.

The idea that he is a technical expert on the stairs, is a myth.

The idea that he had top secret CIA info on the 727 stairs, is a myth until proven!

So far, he has no more proven technical education than the average Popular Mechanics reader. All we have are a bunch of assumed associations based on the random probabilities which arise because of the situation.

And if Tina's description of him tying off the money bag is correct, he does that with the wisdom and skill of a Cub Scout ... who hasn't read Popular Mechanics and Boy's Life!

[edit] an old physics teacher of mine has been awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, along with others in his unit in WWII.     You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


 






 

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General Question:

In order for some of our suspects (specifically Wilson or Lepsy) to plan out this heist, they would need specific information about the 727 (flap settings, stall speed, knowledge of the aftstairs) that would not be available to the layman. In earlier discussions on this forum, I think it's been established that Cooper could not have been just "lucky".

So, what kinds of reference material could someone find on commercial jets in libraries? I've seen the fireman's guide to the 727, anything else?

The information about the aft stairs was closely held.  The 727 modifications and test flights to permit dropping parachutists and cargo through the stairway was probably contracted for by the CIA either directly or through one of their aircraft operations such as Southern Air Transport.  And that work probably had a security classification and a "need to know" restriction.

If the Southeast Asia 727 operations were going to routinely lower and retract the aft stairs in flight, then they would probably have a special control panel for the stairs with more capability than the one for airline 727 stairs that were only operated when the aircraft was on the ground.  That could explain why Cooper had trouble operating the airliner stairs.  He had probably never seen that particular control panel before even if he had hands-on experience with the SEA 727s.

The aircraft performance type information was more readily available since the 727 had been in operation for more than five years at the time of the hijacking.  I personally don't know all the details, but in airline operation the number of flap settings were limited to perhaps five.  In the case of the 727, Cooper would have needed to know the setting at which the leading edge Krueger flaps and leading edge slats were deployed.  I don't personally know if they were deployed at a flap setting of 15 degrees or not, but Cooper would have needed that type of information from somewhere.

I am still of the opinion:

The stairs go up - the stairs go down.

People are observed going in and out, through a hole, via the stairs.

Cooper asked the crew to lower the stairs and open the hole.

So he was relying on the crew to do it for him.

He didn't know better? He gives no evidence he knows anything further about the entire matter? He just orders that the stairs be lowered and the door opened, while still on the ground. He didn't do it himself - he asked the crew to do it for him. There is no evidence in any of the exchanges that he knew anything about how the stairs operated.

The 'mere fact' that he asked the stairs be opened while still on the ground at SEA has been misinterpreted to mean 'he intended to jump close to Seattle'! The two have nothing to do with each other! Then it turns out he doesn't know anything, can't get the stairs down, he has to learn by trial-and-error, time passes ... so if he had intended to jump while still close to Seattle his lack of knowledge about how to operate the stairs got in the way!

Moreover, he wasn't even ready to jump until much later!

The idea that he intended to jump near Seattle is myth.

The idea that he is a technical expert on the stairs, is a myth.

The idea that he had top secret CIA info on the 727 stairs, is a myth until proven!

So far, he has no more proven technical education than the average Popular Mechanics reader. All we have are a bunch of assumed associations based on the random probabilities which arise because of the situation.

And if Tina's description of him tying off the money bag is correct, he does that with the wisdom and skill of a Cub Scout ... who hasn't read Popular Mechanics and Boy's Life!

[edit] an old physics teacher of mine has been awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, along with others in his unit in WWII.     You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


 

Georger, The Congressional Gold Medal mentioned in that article is not the Congressional Medal of Honor.  The Congressional Gold Medal appears to be awarded to personnel who are members of certain groups.  The Medal of Honor is awarded to individuals only and there are less than 100 holders of that medal who are alive today.

After Cooper argued with Rataczak about taking off with the stairs down, Cooper agreed to leave them up for the takeoff but he reportedly told Tina that he knew that the airliner could takeoff with the stairs down.  And he was right on that point.  That indicates prior knowledge of the stairs.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

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General Question:

In order for some of our suspects (specifically Wilson or Lepsy) to plan out this heist, they would need specific information about the 727 (flap settings, stall speed, knowledge of the aftstairs) that would not be available to the layman. In earlier discussions on this forum, I think it's been established that Cooper could not have been just "lucky".

So, what kinds of reference material could someone find on commercial jets in libraries? I've seen the fireman's guide to the 727, anything else?

The information about the aft stairs was closely held.  The 727 modifications and test flights to permit dropping parachutists and cargo through the stairway was probably contracted for by the CIA either directly or through one of their aircraft operations such as Southern Air Transport.  And that work probably had a security classification and a "need to know" restriction.

If the Southeast Asia 727 operations were going to routinely lower and retract the aft stairs in flight, then they would probably have a special control panel for the stairs with more capability than the one for airline 727 stairs that were only operated when the aircraft was on the ground.  That could explain why Cooper had trouble operating the airliner stairs.  He had probably never seen that particular control panel before even if he had hands-on experience with the SEA 727s.

The aircraft performance type information was more readily available since the 727 had been in operation for more than five years at the time of the hijacking.  I personally don't know all the details, but in airline operation the number of flap settings were limited to perhaps five.  In the case of the 727, Cooper would have needed to know the setting at which the leading edge Krueger flaps and leading edge slats were deployed.  I don't personally know if they were deployed at a flap setting of 15 degrees or not, but Cooper would have needed that type of information from somewhere.

I am still of the opinion:

The stairs go up - the stairs go down.

People are observed going in and out, through a hole, via the stairs.

Cooper asked the crew to lower the stairs and open the hole.

So he was relying on the crew to do it for him.

He didn't know better? He gives no evidence he knows anything further about the entire matter? He just orders that the stairs be lowered and the door opened, while still on the ground. He didn't do it himself - he asked the crew to do it for him. There is no evidence in any of the exchanges that he knew anything about how the stairs operated.

The 'mere fact' that he asked the stairs be opened while still on the ground at SEA has been misinterpreted to mean 'he intended to jump close to Seattle'! The two have nothing to do with each other! Then it turns out he doesn't know anything, can't get the stairs down, he has to learn by trial-and-error, time passes ... so if he had intended to jump while still close to Seattle his lack of knowledge about how to operate the stairs got in the way!

Moreover, he wasn't even ready to jump until much later!

The idea that he intended to jump near Seattle is myth.

The idea that he is a technical expert on the stairs, is a myth.

The idea that he had top secret CIA info on the 727 stairs, is a myth until proven!

So far, he has no more proven technical education than the average Popular Mechanics reader. All we have are a bunch of assumed associations based on the random probabilities which arise because of the situation.

And if Tina's description of him tying off the money bag is correct, he does that with the wisdom and skill of a Cub Scout ... who hasn't read Popular Mechanics and Boy's Life!

[edit] an old physics teacher of mine has been awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, along with others in his unit in WWII.     You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


 

Georger, The Congressional Gold Medal mentioned in that article is not the Congressional Medal of Honor.  The Congressional Gold Medal appears to be awarded to personnel who are members of certain groups.  The Medal of Honor is awarded to individuals only and there are less than 100 holders of that medal who are alive today.

After Cooper argued with Rataczak about taking off with the stairs down, Cooper agreed to leave them up for the takeoff but he reportedly told Tina that he knew that the airliner could takeoff with the stairs down.  And he was right on that point.  That indicates prior knowledge of the stairs.

Correct on the first. I misspoke.

Correct on his alleged remark to Tina. He doesn't tell Tina 'why' he knows what he says. We have no way of knowing if he is conveying first-hand knowledge or hearsay from something he had read or heard or believed. He accedes the point and isn't ready to bail straight out of SEA in any event. He could have 'demanded' the stairs be put down - he has the bomb - he can demand anything he wants!

Maybe the CIA has the cigarette butts and did their own testing?

 
 

There is only one person on the radar that would have this type of knowledge, and that would be old McCoy.....he was the first to copy, and fast out of the gate. what was it 4 months later?


But then again we have Peterson, and Gossett.