Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 1102940 times)

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #975 on: July 29, 2016, 09:24:31 PM »
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Ice on the wings...

Low, slow, dirty (flaps, gear, stairs)... if you started picking up ice you had better add some speed pronto. Ice accumulation would almost certainly increase your stall speed due to reducing wing lift.


I don't think the stairs had any issues with the aerodynamics what so ever. when the stairs were hanging by gravity, they were barely open, and the outer frame was rounded to reflect wind shear.

Ice wasn't mentioned until 9:28 "airframe icing"...the crew was "slightly concerned" and activated the anti-icing.

I believe Bill has the times confused. 6 minutes into the flight Cooper was having trouble getting the stairs down. they slowed the plane down to just above the bug. this was also at 7,000 feet, and extremely doubtful any icing had started yet...

The slightly deployed stairs would cause only minor aerodynamic changes as Shutter points out.  The flaps wouldn't be a major problem either but the deployed landing gear would require considerable additional thrust to compensate for its drag.

Airliners such as the 727 would have had electrical de-icing on the wing leading edges, the empennage leading edges, and the engine nacelles leading edges.  The Kruger flaps on the leading edge of the main wings may have complicated the de-icing to some extent.  But de-icing the leading edges may mean simply that the resulting water flows further back on the wing and freezes again at a location where there are no de-icers.  The one thing that needs a lot of attention is the leading edges of the engine nacelles since if ice forms there and chunks break off and go through the turbine engines, the engine can be heavily damaged.

The main icing problem that I have heard about in recent decades involves executive type T-tail aircraft.  If the aircraft is parked in light freezing rain or such for even a relatively brief period of time, ice may form on the top of the horizontal stabilizer.  This would not necessarily be observable from ground level.  But if ice does form there and is not removed, the aircraft may not have sufficient longitudinal control power to get the nose wheel off the runway and rotate to a take-off attitude.  The end result is that the aircraft stays on the runway until it goes off the end and then hits something.  I am aware of several fatal accidents that happened under such conditions.   
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 09:26:45 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #976 on: July 29, 2016, 09:58:32 PM »
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Airliners such as the 727 would have had electrical de-icing on the wing leading edges,

Located on the overhead controls...
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #977 on: July 29, 2016, 11:31:23 PM »
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Bruce wrote: Also, I am saying that the Tina that we all saw and loved on TV is not the same person I met in 2011.

Taking Bruce literally ( ;))... maybe the FBI substituted a ringer for Tina on the History Channel production?

I'm still intrigued by Tina's use of psych tech terms, "psychotic ideation" etc. She basically said Cooper showed no obvious signs of mental illness.

Tina was so articulate and poised. So was Mary Jane. Not so for Marla.

And speaking of Marla, what was she talking about when she said something about a "computer somehow knew that the hijacker was an alcoholic? or something like that...

377

Was the Tina we saw on the HC an imposter? I don't know, but frankly, sometimes I wonder if she was. I know that I often wondered if the Tina pictured in the 2012 Eugene Weekly news article was an imposter because she looked 30 pounds heavier in her pix than I remember her at her front door in 2011. But I only saw her for a few seconds before she closed the door the first time.

Galen has spent a lot more time with Tina over the years, directly or indirectly, and he told me that the Tina in the EW pix is the Tina he has seen. I haven't talked with him since the broadcast of the HC docu, so I don't know what his view is of that situation.

But, at this point I generally feel that the Tina we saw in the HC docu is the Tina Mucklow I met. What is different is the Tina from the docu - calm, warm, thoughtful - versus the Tina whom I experienced slamming doors and hanging up the phone. I don't have a satisfactory answer when I try to reconcile those extremes in behavior.

Currently, I wonder is she was coached, or prepped in some manner for the interview.

Another sticking point for me is the unresolved issue of her memory impairment that hangs in the air. Bill Rataczak told me that Richard Tosaw told him back in the 1980s that Tina's memory was wiped clean, like from a "white board."

Okay. Is anyone going to explain that? Tina? Bill? HC? LMNO?

If it's PTSD, then why isn't anyone talking about that as a criminal impact from the skyjacking?

There are four Tina's on standby that get recycled through various filmings. One has a mole. One has a tattoo. One is on crutches. The fourth cant speak and only nods.  They are hard to tell apart. One doubles as Princess Di when needed. . . . 
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #978 on: July 30, 2016, 12:05:47 AM »
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Airliners such as the 727 would have had electrical de-icing on the wing leading edges,

Located on the overhead controls...

Shutter, are you sure those are the de-icing controls?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #979 on: July 30, 2016, 12:16:04 AM »
I have never used them, but here is what it says...

This panel controls the routing of pneumatic air to the engine cowlings and wings for anti-ice. There were several variations of this panel
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #980 on: July 30, 2016, 12:26:14 AM »
see photo

This function didn't work in the first version I have...the photo shows the toggle switches missing...version two is functional.
here is the entire control...
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 12:51:01 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #981 on: July 31, 2016, 09:32:47 PM »
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Rataczak and his 5,000 above terrain:


He is correct with this response. the further south you go on V23, the higher the mountains get. In the Red Bluff area (Fort Jones) the elevation is around 4900 - 5000 feet. the closer you get to Reno the higher the mountains go again. they are up and above 9,000...


« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 10:57:00 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #982 on: August 01, 2016, 01:10:28 AM »
I suppose the only way to find out what Rataczak meant with his commentary on Cooper only having 5,000 foot worth of air space is to ask the fellow himself. I doubt that will happen, though, now that he has put everything to rest.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #983 on: August 01, 2016, 12:34:48 PM »
another interesting comment was the "flying through the overcast" that's where you will get icing...what were they doing in the clouds?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #984 on: August 01, 2016, 03:44:12 PM »
I was thinking about what you've posted above, Shut, with 305 flying over elevated terrain, up to 9,000 feet near Reno. Deciphering what Rataczak meant when he said what he said about 10,000 feet, Cooper having only 5,000 feet of airspace, etc., we have to remember what else he said: Rataczak was convinced that Cooper jumped at 8:13 pm. That puts Coop over Washington, not Nevada.

So, did Rataczak get confused during the HC docu? Did he mix up his concerns of flying over 9,000 foot terrain coming into Reno with his other speculation of Cooper jumping earlier in the flight?

It also begs the question of whether any pertinent information was edited out of the broadcast. Also, it shows the limitations of having rookie Cooper investigators, like Jensen and Fuentes, unable to really tease out the finer details from interviewees who may have memory issues or hidden agendas playing out.

To wit: does Bill Rataczak really want to put Norjak to rest, or he just saying that to get guys like me off his back? When I spoke with Bill in 2009 he was very eager to talk. We spoke for 70 minutes over the phone. But when he read the kinds of stuff I was writing on Norjak, he cut off all correspondence with me - no emails, phone or snail mail. Plus, he maintains his friendship with Himmelsbach, and even called him when I was sitting in Ralph's living room, back in 2011. What do they talk about? Hmmmmmm. I doubt those two guys let anything Norjak stay at rest for too long. And clearly, Bill's emotions about that night still reside close to the surface, especially when it comes to Tina.

So, this mantra that everyone recites: Norjak needs to go to bed, may be simply an attempt to wrap their actions of 11. 24. 71 in a cocoon that is sanctioned by the general public, and lets the principals off the hook of talking about it.

What could Rataczak be hiding? I'm not sure, but maybe he's been shaving the edges off the truth over the years to protect himself, NWO, the FBI and their secrets, or others in the crew. Maybe Bill was flying outside of V-23, high up on the slopes of the Cascades, and he - and others - don't want that information to be made public.
 

Offline Olemisscub

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #985 on: August 01, 2016, 03:57:19 PM »
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But, at this point I generally feel that the Tina we saw in the HC docu is the Tina Mucklow I met. What is different is the Tina from the docu - calm, warm, thoughtful - versus the Tina whom I experienced slamming doors and hanging up the phone. I don't have a satisfactory answer when I try to reconcile those extremes in behavior.

1) She obviously felt like you weren't respecting her space or her decision to not speak to you, thus the slams and hang ups. 2) The HC obviously paid her and Bill and they also had a former bigwig in the FBI who is highly respected, thus why she did the show.

It's not that complex.

Seriously Bruce, you're kinda lucky because this is more than enough to have had a restraining order or another criminal charge filed against you:

Quote
The 11 Slammed Doors/ Phone Hang-ups:

1. Springfield, Oregon, August 2011, Tina, “You need to leave now.”
2. Springfield, Oregon, August 2011, Tina, three minutes later. BAM!
3. Springfield, Oregon, August 2011, Tina, one minute after #2. BAM and a Dead-Bolt.
4. Dr. ET, Dec. 2010, Philly Hospital Office, Can we talk?  “No.”
5. Cousin Arlene, 2010, Christmas time, all the lights went out.
6. Shelton, WA, Lee Dormuth, Feb. 2011, “I want nothing to do with it.”
7. Shelton, WA, Lee Dormuth, April 2011, “I have nothing to do with it.”
8. Carmel of Maria Regina, Sister Teresa, Feb. 2011, “I am going back to my prayers.”
9. Phone invitation, 2015, Tina, “I'm not interested. Click.”
10. Phone query on “permanent trauma,” Dr. ET, 2009, “...we need to respect her privacy. Goodbye.”
11. Phone conversation with FA Leslie, 2012, “I knew Tina as a wonderful, sweet person. That's all I want to say. Click.”

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #986 on: August 01, 2016, 04:02:59 PM »
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Maybe Bill was flying outside of V-23, high up on the slopes of the Cascades, and he - and others - don't want that information to be made public.


I'm positive he got things mixed up, but still wonder about his comment of being in the overcast...

We have to remember that Bill might not be as interested as we are, or he would be involved in the mix. they seem to be ready to move on, and forget the whole thing.

Keep in mind that they were dealing with a criminal. I don't think they would have to hide any attempts to get rid of him...Cooper made threats to kill everyone on board, so the crew could of dumped his ass in the ocean as Bill has said in the past.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 04:04:32 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #987 on: August 02, 2016, 03:43:37 AM »
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1) She obviously felt like you weren't respecting her space or her decision to not speak to you, thus the slams and hang ups.


It's not obvious to me. Why is it obvious to you? Basically, I'm asking: Do reasonable people act like Tina?

If you say "Yes," to that question, then you have to explain the other whys of her life: why did she go into a cloistered convent for 12 years; why was she in a long-term residential treatment facility; why does she chose not to speak to anyone - not just me - about Norjak for 30 years; why have multiple witnesses describe her as being cognitively impaired, to such a degree that she wouldn't be called to testify in a trial if DB Cooper was brought to trial?

Maybe this is all just a very personal journey in a very strange life. But maybe it is something else? Could it be MKULTRA? Can you rule that out? If so, how?

Bottom Line: How has Tina's silence until the HC docu served other agendas? Did Tina's reticence serve NWO's marketing strategy of keeping the DB Cooper story as quiet as possible? Did NWO have any legal liability for a lack security system that allowed a skyjacker to threaten 36 passengers? Was CEO Nyrop scared of a law suit? Was Tina induced into silence to keep other secrets under wraps? SOG? Laos? Transferring 5th SF troopers out of the US Army and onto the CIA's payroll?

All of the above?
None of the above?
Some of the above?
Something else?

Bottom Line II: How messy a mess can you accept?

Or is it just easier to accuse the guy who asks the questions of being a stalker, a criminal, or a nut job?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #988 on: August 02, 2016, 03:48:16 AM »
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Seriously Bruce, you're kinda lucky because this is more than enough to have had a restraining order or another criminal charge filed against you:


Bring it on, OleMiss.

Shall I send you Tina's address so that you can advise her of her legal powers to bring a possible end to pesky questions from someone who "needs to get a life," as she referred to me in the docu. Veiled of course. I wonder why Tina didn't name names. Maybe it's her good manners on display.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 03:49:59 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #989 on: August 02, 2016, 03:53:27 AM »
A Tina Mucklow Lawsuit

OleMiss, just imagine - if you are correct, I might be the first person successfully arrested and convicted in conjunction with the Norjak case.

I wonder what that might do to book sales. Could I still collect my royalties in prison from a book deal I made before incarceration? Is the Son of Sam ruling retroactive?