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any further thoughts on the red X's west of the flight path?   

Yes.  They represent what R2 was doing when the airliner was in that area.

There are six red X's.  The western three are on a direct line between the Mayfield (Malay) Intersection and the Canby Intersection.  They would represent the location of the airliner at a given time as it bypassed Portland on the western side.

The other three red X's on the eastern side of that line represent the location of the aircraft that R2 was vectoring to join up with the airliner.  Or to put it another way, those red X's represent the flight path of the airliner and the chase aircraft that was trying to join up with it.

You can ignore the other so-called flight paths since they are pure nonsense.
 

It seems that way to me also. Those are the functions those X's appear to be serving. This map may never have been intended to be a final-accurate flight path map,  but a provisional graphic attempting to depict 'multiple' events in the record of that night?   

This map may have been an attempt to blend the NWA search map with other data, ie historical records. That could explain why Agent Carr and the FBI brought this map forward ... to be discussed and pulled apart. There could be another more accurate (actual) final flight path map we have never seen. Or, This map may be as far as the accuracy of their data allowed them to go and there never was a "final flight path map" ? Carr may have been looking for a 'final flight path map' as much as we are! 

I have asked before: what is the date this map came into existence? 

  The devil is in the details.

One of those maps (the one that includes the red dots) shows Mount St. Helens in the upper right hand corner with a height of 9677 feet.

Present day Seattle aeronautical charts show Mount St. Helens with a height of 8365 feet.

And Mount St. Helens blew its stack a couple of months after the money was found at Tina Bar in February 1980.

Ergo, the map was prepared before Mount St. Helens erupted, assuming that the FBI didn't just use an out of date map to plot their flight paths.

good observation.

Here's another work graphic. This graphic was saved from a private work group a number of years ago. It purports to show the path the T33 took before a rendezvous with 305  near Lake Oswego, time uncertain. Note the time 7:50 assigned to the first red cross. This time was purported to be "an estimate" assigned to the red X by one of the Controllers.

Comments?

According to Himmelsbach's book, page 47, the T-33 took off to the west from the Portland Airport at 7:50 PM.  At that time, the airliner was still way north of the Mayfield (Malay) Intersection.  And the airliner didn't get to the "23 DME south of Portland" point until 8:18 PM, 28 minutes later.  Further, the "23 DME" point is actually several nautical miles south of Lake Oswego.

That thin blue line that someone has added, running south from a couple of the X marks, doesn't make any sense.  It does not point to a navigational aid as far as I can tell and does not cross V-23.  Its purpose is unknown.

The only thing that I personally get from this chart is that someone agrees that the X marks represent the location of one or more aircraft at some time point.

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any further thoughts on the red X's west of the flight path?   

Yes.  They represent what R2 was doing when the airliner was in that area.

There are six red X's.  The western three are on a direct line between the Mayfield (Malay) Intersection and the Canby Intersection.  They would represent the location of the airliner at a given time as it bypassed Portland on the western side.

The other three red X's on the eastern side of that line represent the location of the aircraft that R2 was vectoring to join up with the airliner.  Or to put it another way, those red X's represent the flight path of the airliner and the chase aircraft that was trying to join up with it.

You can ignore the other so-called flight paths since they are pure nonsense.
 

It seems that way to me also. Those are the functions those X's appear to be serving. This map may never have been intended to be a final-accurate flight path map,  but a provisional graphic attempting to depict 'multiple' events in the record of that night?   

This map may have been an attempt to blend the NWA search map with other data, ie historical records. That could explain why Agent Carr and the FBI brought this map forward ... to be discussed and pulled apart. There could be another more accurate (actual) final flight path map we have never seen. Or, This map may be as far as the accuracy of their data allowed them to go and there never was a "final flight path map" ? Carr may have been looking for a 'final flight path map' as much as we are! 

I have asked before: what is the date this map came into existence? 

  The devil is in the details.

One of those maps (the one that includes the red dots) shows Mount St. Helens in the upper right hand corner with a height of 9677 feet.

Present day Seattle aeronautical charts show Mount St. Helens with a height of 8365 feet.

And Mount St. Helens blew its stack a couple of months after the money was found at Tina Bar in February 1980.

Ergo, the map was prepared before Mount St. Helens erupted, assuming that the FBI didn't just use an out of date map to plot their flight paths.

good observation.

Here's another work graphic. This graphic was saved from a private work group a number of years ago. It purports to show the path the T33 took before a rendezvous with 305  near Lake Oswego, time uncertain. Note the time 7:50 assigned to the first red cross. This time was purported to be "an estimate" assigned to the red X by one of the Controllers.

Comments?

According to Himmelsbach's book, page 47, the T-33 took off to the west from the Portland Airport at 7:50 PM.  At that time, the airliner was still way north of the Mayfield (Malay) Intersection.  And the airliner didn't get to the "23 DME south of Portland" point until 8:18 PM, 28 minutes later.  Further, the "23 DME" point is actually several nautical miles south of Lake Oswego.

That thin blue line that someone has added, running south from a couple of the X marks, doesn't make any sense.  It does not point to a navigational aid as far as I can tell and does not cross V-23.  Its purpose is unknown.

The only thing that I personally get from this chart is that someone agrees that the X marks represent the location of one or more aircraft at some time point.

Robert99,
Is there anything on this map that would lead you to conclude the flight path was west of V-23?  We don't know what the X's mean, right?

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Is it possible they simply made a mistake while plotting the course? they do line up with the path. it makes more sense that they would go around, or bypass Portland though...

All I can say is that no airliner, operating under the conditions that the NWA aircraft was operating that evening, is going to fly a segmented flight path around Portland as shown on that map.

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any further thoughts on the red X's west of the flight path?   

Yes.  They represent what R2 was doing when the airliner was in that area.

There are six red X's.  The western three are on a direct line between the Mayfield (Malay) Intersection and the Canby Intersection.  They would represent the location of the airliner at a given time as it bypassed Portland on the western side.

The other three red X's on the eastern side of that line represent the location of the aircraft that R2 was vectoring to join up with the airliner.  Or to put it another way, those red X's represent the flight path of the airliner and the chase aircraft that was trying to join up with it.

You can ignore the other so-called flight paths since they are pure nonsense.
 

It seems that way to me also. Those are the functions those X's appear to be serving. This map may never have been intended to be a final-accurate flight path map,  but a provisional graphic attempting to depict 'multiple' events in the record of that night?   

This map may have been an attempt to blend the NWA search map with other data, ie historical records. That could explain why Agent Carr and the FBI brought this map forward ... to be discussed and pulled apart. There could be another more accurate (actual) final flight path map we have never seen. Or, This map may be as far as the accuracy of their data allowed them to go and there never was a "final flight path map" ? Carr may have been looking for a 'final flight path map' as much as we are! 

I have asked before: what is the date this map came into existence? 

  The devil is in the details.

One of those maps (the one that includes the red dots) shows Mount St. Helens in the upper right hand corner with a height of 9677 feet.

Present day Seattle aeronautical charts show Mount St. Helens with a height of 8365 feet.

And Mount St. Helens blew its stack a couple of months after the money was found at Tina Bar in February 1980.

Ergo, the map was prepared before Mount St. Helens erupted, assuming that the FBI didn't just use an out of date map to plot their flight paths.

good observation.

Here's another work graphic. This graphic was saved from a private work group a number of years ago. It purports to show the path the T33 took before a rendezvous with 305  near Lake Oswego, time uncertain. Note the time 7:50 assigned to the first red cross. This time was purported to be "an estimate" assigned to the red X by one of the Controllers.

Comments?

According to Himmelsbach's book, page 47, the T-33 took off to the west from the Portland Airport at 7:50 PM.  At that time, the airliner was still way north of the Mayfield (Malay) Intersection.  And the airliner didn't get to the "23 DME south of Portland" point until 8:18 PM, 28 minutes later.  Further, the "23 DME" point is actually several nautical miles south of Lake Oswego.

That thin blue line that someone has added, running south from a couple of the X marks, doesn't make any sense.  It does not point to a navigational aid as far as I can tell and does not cross V-23.  Its purpose is unknown.

The only thing that I personally get from this chart is that someone agrees that the X marks represent the location of one or more aircraft at some time point.

Robert99,
Is there anything on this map that would lead you to conclude the flight path was west of V-23?  We don't know what the X's mean, right?

Mark,

Read the first part (above) of this very message.  The meaning of the Xs has also been discussed at length previously on this thread and on DZ for a period of several years.

My suggestion is that you print out the map that has all six Xs on it, get yourself a long ruler, and check things out for yourself.  In doing so, be sure to use the mileage scale that has been added to that map.

Also, check out Himmelsbach's book for which direction his helicopter headed after it took off as well as why all the chase aircraft were directed to the west side of Portland.  You might also check with Georger for additional information he has that is related to the above.

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Is it possible they simply made a mistake while plotting the course? they do line up with the path. it makes more sense that they would go around, or bypass Portland though...

All I can say is that no airliner, operating under the conditions that the NWA aircraft was operating that evening, is going to fly a segmented flight path around Portland as shown on that map.

Was there any rules/laws about flying over populated area's with a danger to the area below the plane?

Actually, there used to be rules about dropping things from aircraft that would endanger people or property on the ground.  But even if there isn't a specific rule as you mentioned, there is probably going to be a "catch all" rule that would apply if the actions were serious enough.

Since Cooper wasn't in the cockpit and holding a gun to the heads of the flight crew, I would suppose that the flight crew would be legally responsible for the airliner's flight path.  Even the FAA has a specific rule stating that the pilot(s) is the final authority as to the operation of his aircraft.

But if someone was holding a gun to the pilot(s) head, I think that would be an extenuating factor.  And if the pilot(s) killed Cooper, it is unlikely that any charges would be made against them.

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Is it possible they simply made a mistake while plotting the course? they do line up with the path. it makes more sense that they would go around, or bypass Portland though...

All I can say is that no airliner, operating under the conditions that the NWA aircraft was operating that evening, is going to fly a segmented flight path around Portland as shown on that map.

Was there any rules/laws about flying over populated area's with a danger to the area below the plane?

Actually, there used to be rules about dropping things from aircraft that would endanger people or property on the ground.  But even if there isn't a specific rule as you mentioned, there is probably going to be a "catch all" rule that would apply if the actions were serious enough.

Since Cooper wasn't in the cockpit and holding a gun to the heads of the flight crew, I would suppose that the flight crew would be legally responsible for the airliner's flight path.  Even the FAA has a specific rule stating that the pilot(s) is the final authority as to the operation of his aircraft.

But if someone was holding a gun to the pilot(s) head, I think that would be an extenuating factor.  And if the pilot(s) killed Cooper, it is unlikely that any charges would be made against them.

Ive never read where Rataczak was asked if they were ordered to go around PDX ? Evidently people interviewing him never thought to ask. Of course the heart of the flight path is right in the middle of any question of that nature.

When I talked to the former manager of the Troutdale airport he was specific: "we were told they went around Portland on the west side, to avoid Portland". I asked who told him that. He replied: "officials". I was talking to him at all because of the Thomas report that the flight was over the Washougal and crossed the Columbia over the Troutdale airport. The manager's reply to that was: "4%#@ING BULLSHIT. Who says that!?".
 

Assuming that the airliner was flying from the Mayfield (Malay) Intersection, northwest of Portland, direct to the Canby Intersection, south of Portland, its True Course (with respect to the grid lines) would be about 178 degrees or almost exactly straight south.

For most of the time between those two intersections, the aircraft would be off V-23 but still in controlled airspace.  And between those two intersections it would be flying headings assigned to it by the Seattle ATC controllers (R2 in this case).  Once back on V-23 near the Canby Intersection, the airliner would be told to resume normal navigation and would no longer receive headings to fly from the controllers.

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Is it possible they simply made a mistake while plotting the course? they do line up with the path. it makes more sense that they would go around, or bypass Portland though...

All I can say is that no airliner, operating under the conditions that the NWA aircraft was operating that evening, is going to fly a segmented flight path around Portland as shown on that map.

Was there any rules/laws about flying over populated area's with a danger to the area below the plane?

Actually, there used to be rules about dropping things from aircraft that would endanger people or property on the ground.  But even if there isn't a specific rule as you mentioned, there is probably going to be a "catch all" rule that would apply if the actions were serious enough.

Normally pilot in command is responsible for anything dropped from their aircraft. This has been used to hold pilot liable for non FAA cleared pirate jumps into events where jumpers  caused injury or damage. Makes pilots wary of dropping jumpers over anything but a chart marked DZ unless the jump has been cleared.

FAR Sec. 91.15 — Dropping objects.

No pilot in command of a civil aircraft may allow any object to be dropped from that aircraft in flight that creates a hazard to persons or property. However, this section does not prohibit the dropping of any object if reasonable precautions are taken to avoid injury or damage to persons or property.

Since Cooper wasn't in the cockpit and holding a gun to the heads of the flight crew, I would suppose that the flight crew would be legally responsible for the airliner's flight path.  Even the FAA has a specific rule stating that the pilot(s) is the final authority as to the operation of his aircraft.

But if someone was holding a gun to the pilot(s) head, I think that would be an extenuating factor.  And if the pilot(s) killed Cooper, it is unlikely that any charges would be made against them.

Definitely self defense if they shot Cooper. Charges highly unlikely. His bomb was an imminent threat to life. Deadly force justified.