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I just find it hard for the map to be so far off (east & west)...they did take the data from the plane, they were tracked by McChord, so how could the path be so far west of it's know position. unless they intentionally did this, which I have doubts.

As mentioned before, a lot of it makes sense, but moving it that far seems to be a stretch...??

R2 said (in all his interviews) that 305 was right down the center of V23 nearly the whole time, right over PDX! The map doesnt show that! Then R2 said well maybe they did veer to the west to miss PDX? R2 said he was busy at the time and wasnt watching because he was watching and talking to people about a T33 that had taken off from PDX to intercept 305, and R2 says he then looked and 305 had crossed the Columbia and R2 brought the T33 and 305 together south of PDX near Lake Oswego ... just as shown on the map!   Keep in mind this all during the communications blackout in the Transcript.. which ends at 8:20?

If R2 says that the T-33 joined up with the airliner near Lake Oswego no later than 8:20, then that is almost exactly the correct time - to the minute - that the airliner would have been at the Canby Intersection and thus rejoining V-23 for the rest of the trip south.

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I just find it hard for the map to be so far off (east & west)...they did take the data from the plane, they were tracked by McChord, so how could the path be so far west of it's know position. unless they intentionally did this, which I have doubts.

As mentioned before, a lot of it makes sense, but moving it that far seems to be a stretch...??

R2 said (in all his interviews) that 305 was right down the center of V23 nearly the whole time, right over PDX! The map doesnt show that! Then R2 said well maybe they did veer to the west to miss PDX? R2 said he was busy at the time and wasnt watching because he was watching and talking to people about a T33 that had taken off from PDX to intercept 305, and R2 says he then looked and 305 had crossed the Columbia and R2 brought the T33 and 305 together south of PDX near Lake Oswego ... just as shown on the map!   Keep in mind this all during the communications blackout in the Transcript.. which ends at 8:20?

If R2 says that the T-33 joined up with the airliner near Lake Oswego no later than 8:20, then that is almost exactly the correct time - to the minute - that the airliner would have been at the Canby Intersection and thus rejoining V-23 for the rest of the trip south.

That is what R2 said. R99 and I both talked to him. The location is correct. R2 didn't recall the exact time.

Georger, I wasn't in on the actual conversation with you and R2 although you sent me information on that conversation a long time ago (apparently very shortly after it took place).

I have just finished reading the Ckret posts that WSHM has compiled.  And here is something that needs to be emphasized repeatedly.  The time hack at the bottom of the ARINC teletype messages is the time that the message was sent over the ARINC teletype.

The actual time that the message was received by voice radio from the airliner was several minutes earlier since the radio communication had to be "formatted" and then typed into the ARINC teletype system.

Presumably, the voice messages that NWA people in MSP and SEA received in real time over the ARINC radio phone patch made their way to those same offices a few minutes later as teletype messages.  They were all listening to the same radio transmissions from the airliner.  The George Harrison papers would have the brief "notes" made by the people listening to the voice phone patch.

Does anyone know of a NWA employee in the MSP office whose last name started with the letter "R" and who would have been listening to those radio messages?

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I just find it hard for the map to be so far off (east & west)...they did take the data from the plane, they were tracked by McChord, so how could the path be so far west of it's know position. unless they intentionally did this, which I have doubts.

As mentioned before, a lot of it makes sense, but moving it that far seems to be a stretch...??

R2 said (in all his interviews) that 305 was right down the center of V23 nearly the whole time, right over PDX! The map doesnt show that! Then R2 said well maybe they did veer to the west to miss PDX? R2 said he was busy at the time and wasnt watching because he was watching and talking to people about a T33 that had taken off from PDX to intercept 305, and R2 says he then looked and 305 had crossed the Columbia and R2 brought the T33 and 305 together south of PDX near Lake Oswego ... just as shown on the map!   Keep in mind this all during the communications blackout in the Transcript.. which ends at 8:20?

If R2 says that the T-33 joined up with the airliner near Lake Oswego no later than 8:20, then that is almost exactly the correct time - to the minute - that the airliner would have been at the Canby Intersection and thus rejoining V-23 for the rest of the trip south.

That is what R2 said. R99 and I both talked to him. The location is correct. R2 didn't recall the exact time.

Georger, I wasn't in on the actual conversation with you and R2 although you sent me information on that conversation a long time ago (apparently very shortly after it took place).

I have just finished reading the Ckret posts that WSHM has compiled.  And here is something that needs to be emphasized repeatedly.  The time hack at the bottom of the ARINC teletype messages is the time that the message was sent over the ARINC teletype.

The actual time that the message was received by voice radio from the airliner was several minutes earlier since the radio communication had to be "formatted" and then typed into the ARINC teletype system.

Presumably, the voice messages that NWA people in MSP and SEA received in real time over the ARINC radio phone patch made their way to those same offices a few minutes later as teletype messages.  They were all listening to the same radio transmissions from the airliner.  The George Harrison papers would have the brief "notes" made by the people listening to the voice phone patch.

Does anyone know of a NWA employee in the MSP office whose last name started with the letter "R" and who would have been listening to those radio messages?

I thought you talked to R2? Didnt I give you his contact? I asked him if he would talk to you and he said "fine".
?

Who was it at DZ that replied to me saying: "he told me the same thing" when I mentioned R2 had said so far as he knew 305 had flown right down the center of V23 ... and crossed right over PDX on V23 ? Wasn't that you?  Could that have been Hominid if it wasn't you?

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any further thoughts on the red X's west of the flight path?   

Yes.  They represent what R2 was doing when the airliner was in that area.

There are six red X's.  The western three are on a direct line between the Mayfield (Malay) Intersection and the Canby Intersection.  They would represent the location of the airliner at a given time as it bypassed Portland on the western side.

The other three red X's on the eastern side of that line represent the location of the aircraft that R2 was vectoring to join up with the airliner.  Or to put it another way, those red X's represent the flight path of the airliner and the chase aircraft that was trying to join up with it.

You can ignore the other so-called flight paths since they are pure nonsense.
 

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any further thoughts on the red X's west of the flight path?   

Yes.  They represent what R2 was doing when the airliner was in that area.

There are six red X's.  The western three are on a direct line between the Mayfield (Malay) Intersection and the Canby Intersection.  They would represent the location of the airliner at a given time as it bypassed Portland on the western side.

The other three red X's on the eastern side of that line represent the location of the aircraft that R2 was vectoring to join up with the airliner.  Or to put it another way, those red X's represent the flight path of the airliner and the chase aircraft that was trying to join up with it.

You can ignore the other so-called flight paths since they are pure nonsense.
 

It seems that way to me also. Those are the functions those X's appear to be serving. This map may never have been intended to be a final-accurate flight path map,  but a provisional graphic attempting to depict 'multiple' events in the record of that night?   

This map may have been an attempt to blend the NWA search map with other data, ie historical records. That could explain why Agent Carr and the FBI brought this map forward ... to be discussed and pulled apart. There could be another more accurate (actual) final flight path map we have never seen. Or, This map may be as far as the accuracy of their data allowed them to go and there never was a "final flight path map" ? Carr may have been looking for a 'final flight path map' as much as we are! 

I have asked before: what is the date this map came into existence? 

  The devil is in the details.

One of those maps (the one that includes the red dots) shows Mount St. Helens in the upper right hand corner with a height of 9677 feet.

Present day Seattle aeronautical charts show Mount St. Helens with a height of 8365 feet.

And Mount St. Helens blew its stack a couple of months after the money was found at Tina Bar in February 1980.

Ergo, the map was prepared before Mount St. Helens erupted, assuming that the FBI didn't just use an out of date map to plot their flight paths.