Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 1103018 times)

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #885 on: April 04, 2016, 08:00:57 PM »
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It seems to be illogical for the bundles to arrive in the same spot.  . . . . .

Not if the bundles were still protected by the bag to some extent when they moved downstream and lodged temporarily at Tina Bar.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #886 on: April 04, 2016, 08:36:38 PM »
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It seems to be illogical for the bundles to arrive in the same spot.  . . . . .

Not if the bundles were still protected by the bag to some extent when they moved downstream and lodged temporarily at Tina Bar.


True, to some extent...the bag would have went through weathering as well, and the contents. should of slowed the aging process down considerably, but I'm guessing the bills would start bonding....

I find it hard to believe multiple bundles arrived together, and positioned themselves in order, or close to a nice pile. all heads up and facing the same? kind of odd...
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 08:40:00 PM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #887 on: April 05, 2016, 12:38:27 AM »
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(b) the fact of intact bundles at one location,

I'd like to think the bundles were already fused together before the final resting place. others like to believe three loose bundles fell into place...

The probability of single lose bundles recombining some distance from their source is = 0.

A cemented bundle could travel, or roll, be pushed along...?  Several in the FBI cited the rounded (worn) edges of the Ingram bundles and concluded the aggregate bundle had rolled (along the bottom of the Columbia?). That idea didn't gain too much traction. Then Agent ____ spoke up and suggested the money might have been transported in a block of ice.  ;) Of course the dredging in 1974 puts the money right where it was found, if you set Kaye's endless objections aside. A bag solves a lot of problems too (many possible scenarios) ...................  but from where, when?

The fact the bills were cemented, as it were, was probably one factor that allowed that found bundles to survive as long as they did in nature. A semi-cemented block of money would be more resistant to outside forces and invasion by bacteria not to mention the fact that some of the chemicals that are in the paper to begin with are there are to resist bacteria invasion and hard physical handling over time. Paper money is pretty hardy stuff. Blocks of paper money have been known to slow down bullets...   
   
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 01:01:43 AM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #888 on: April 05, 2016, 12:39:34 AM »
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It seems to be illogical for the bundles to arrive in the same spot.  . . . . .

Not if the bundles were still protected by the bag to some extent when they moved downstream and lodged temporarily at Tina Bar.


True, to some extent...the bag would have went through weathering as well, and the contents. should of slowed the aging process down considerably, but I'm guessing the bills would start bonding....

I find it hard to believe multiple bundles arrived together, and positioned themselves in order, or close to a nice pile. all heads up and facing the same? kind of odd...

If you are referring to the bundle shown by Tom Kaye, it indicates "rotation" of the bills in a given bundle where the bundle had to be exposed to a current for a period of time to cause that rotation.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #889 on: April 05, 2016, 12:41:44 AM »
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(b) the fact of intact bundles at one location,

I'd like to think the bundles were already fused together before the final resting place. others like to believe three loose bundles fell into place...

A couple things, Shut:

1. Do you think the bundles were buried under pressure, so as to "fuse" together, such that they crumbled into chunks when attempts were made to peel the bills apart?

2. Do you think they were buried under pressure somewhere else, prior to the T-Bar discovery site?

Have you ever glued paper together with flour paste ... recently? Suggest you try it and instead of flour paste think 'clay sediments' plus all the emulsifiers that are in money paper to begin with! Add a little Portland cement and you could lay brick with that stuff!  ;) 

Dr. Feyman.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 12:52:41 AM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #890 on: April 05, 2016, 12:49:39 AM »
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It seems to be illogical for the bundles to arrive in the same spot. It also appears the Ingrams never said how many rubber bands came off, or anything related to the amount of bundles. Carr thinks it was 4, or "multiple" as he stated. then you have other agents claiming of clumps.

Decades later, more serial numbers surface. they also claimed it was due to time in the elements.

Just like everything else Tena bar related...it's very confusing to come to any conclusions...

I think the basic principle of physics and chemistry is understood. Don't forget this is not just raw paper - this is cotton fibre 'cloth' coated with a titanium dioxide emulsifier and other agents which when wetted and infiltrated by clay minerals/particles and other biological 'goo' makes a very nice paste. You could glue your dog to the doghouse with that stuff!  The fact this money survived in nature for nine years testifies to the success of the paper chemistry in resisting decay, invasion, and wear exhibited in the Columbia environment.    ;D
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 01:48:28 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #891 on: April 05, 2016, 09:20:23 AM »
The confusing part is the fact of trying to figure out what happened. Tom still has bills in testing. he said they still don't look like the money find. then we have a plausible theory from 99. we also have the possibility the money was transported by dredge. then the unpopular plant theory.

I've read a lot about money. water shouldn't have much affect on it. pinpointing the reason for it's appearance seems to be a problem.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #892 on: April 05, 2016, 01:56:32 PM »
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The confusing part is the fact of trying to figure out what happened. Tom still has bills in testing. he said they still don't look like the money find. then we have a plausible theory from 99. we also have the possibility the money was transported by dredge. then the unpopular plant theory.

I've read a lot about money. water shouldn't have much affect on it. pinpointing the reason for it's appearance seems to be a problem.

Tom still has bills in testing. he said they still don't look like the money find.

Excuse me while I recover my wits!

 :o   
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #893 on: April 06, 2016, 04:20:52 PM »
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The confusing part is the fact of trying to figure out what happened. Tom still has bills in testing. he said they still don't look like the money find. then we have a plausible theory from 99. we also have the possibility the money was transported by dredge. then the unpopular plant theory.

I've read a lot about money. water shouldn't have much affect on it. pinpointing the reason for it's appearance seems to be a problem.

Tom still has bills in testing. he said they still don't look like the money find.

Quite obviously, Tom's bills have not gone through the same process the Cooper money went through, prior to discovery!

Pending new-better evidence we don't know a lot more than when we started. We have clarified the options, in all likelihood. The subject will continue to be debated and speculated about, probably forever.

 :)

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #894 on: April 06, 2016, 08:42:22 PM »
I forgot this was on our site....

Info supplied by Hominid

The attachment shows a representation of the "pressure bump" and, below that, what the "cabin climb rate" guage indications could be if the pressure pulse were long in relation to the leakage time of the guage. The curve is the indication over the time frame of the pressure pulse, and the circles show what the guage indication would look like at different points in time.
The positive and negative indications of the guage could have been larger or smaller than shown. They could even have banged up against the max limits on the right side of the guage. The whole sequence could have occurred very quickly, in which case it would seem that the needle jumped down instantly then back up instantly, then back to zero. If it occurred more slowly, this would seem more like a typical (albeit 1-cycle) "oscillation."
The response to the pressure bump could easily have been "the oscillation" except for the bump or ear popping not being mentioned along with the oscillations in the logged communications, or the later timing of the bump not corresponding to the logged time of the "oscillations," or nobody ever saying they were the same thing.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 07:00:06 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #895 on: April 07, 2016, 04:57:26 PM »
Good post Shutter. Those aneroid RATE instruments are extraordinarily sensitive. If I slam my front door, a rate of climb indicator on a shelf 15 feet way reacts very visibly. My living room is hardly a pressure vessel with just a single opening, there are leaks everywhere. The altimeter doesn't budge.

377
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 04:57:58 PM by 377 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #896 on: April 12, 2016, 09:33:53 AM »
I was thinking about getting an indicator for kicks. it actually works sitting on the shelf? that's cool.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #897 on: May 16, 2016, 05:24:33 PM »
Ok, so, many believe the jump time is accurate if not mistaken, or to the 8:15 position, but could be further west?

My main concern is how could they be that far off on the flight path. I'll admit it doesn't make sense around the jump time with the plane shifting east and west of V23.

Why all the turns once they crossed the Lewis river?
Why not fly the plane right down the center of the Columbia away from the main population?
Why did they bank hard while crossing the Columbia?
Why do we have x's unaccounted for on the map just past the Columbia?

Attention Bobby....nobody is trying to move the path. this is a discussion forum. people discuss things, so that doesn't mean they are applying that discussion to become FACT....one has to look at all angles, regardless to what they have said in the past. show the the radar data, or the flight recorder data to back up what they are claiming. remember, the FBI states it as the "believed flight path" I've heard an agent who was there state they had no idea where he jumped!
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 05:31:55 PM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #898 on: May 16, 2016, 05:59:24 PM »
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Ok, so, many believe the jump time is accurate if not mistaken, or to the 8:15 position, but could be further west?

My main concern is how could they be that far off on the flight path. I'll admit it doesn't make sense around the jump time with the plane shifting east and west of V23.

Why all the turns once they crossed the Lewis river?
Why not fly the plane right down the center of the Columbia away from the main population?
Why did they bank hard while crossing the Columbia?
Why do we have x's unaccounted for on the map just past the Columbia?

Attention Bobby....nobody is trying to move the path. this is a discussion forum. people discuss things, so that doesn't mean they are applying that discussion to become FACT....one has to look at all angles, regardless to what they have said in the past. show the the radar data, or the flight recorder data to back up what they are claiming. remember, the FBI states it as the "believed flight path" I've heard an agent who was there state they had no idea where he jumped!

To me the greatest uncertainty is in the vertical axis which is TIME. But that is precisely what the NWA search map "says", and depicts. They were uncertain exactly when Cooper jumped in the 8:08-8:15 time frame. That is exactly what the search map says. They placed the greatest probability at 8:11 which is where the Line A-B starts.

This NWA map was serious. It was a serious professional attempt to identify where and when Cooper jumped based on the best data and technology available to them. But, it "is" a probability chart and no more. It depicts the accuracy of the data they had to work with. (If Blevins sees something magical or Holy in that ... then Blevins does not know how to read the English language or read a map and know what he's seeing! Recall he also has a grapgic which is claims for years is a flight path. Farf jumped him on that numerous times. Bobby never saw the light and never will because he doesn't know the difference.)

Bobby is as Bobby does. He is 6 years into his game. Nothing will change. Nothing can change. Bobby is Bobby.  :)) 
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 06:03:08 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #899 on: May 16, 2016, 06:05:46 PM »
I just find it hard for the map to be so far off (east & west)...they did take the data from the plane, they were tracked by McChord, so how could the path be so far west of it's know position. unless they intentionally did this, which I have doubts.

As mentioned before, a lot of it makes sense, but moving it that far seems to be a stretch...????????