Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 1102992 times)

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #855 on: December 16, 2015, 08:59:29 AM »
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Continued email

The AN/FSQ-7 SAGE computer had magnetic core memory, which was persistent, even when the computer was powered down.  However, upon startup, that memory was usually reset and then reloaded from magnetic tape.  Magnetic drums were used for short-term memory, and the data stored there was also persistent and had to be erased or overwritten.
 
Generally speaking, the core memory was mostly used to store instructions and temporary data values, the magnetic drums held some instructions and history information, and magnetic tapes were either program storage (used to initiate and while running) or history information about tracks for later analysis.
 
Radar history was kept on a special purpose magnetic drum, which kept several minutes of past radar blips and presented them in sequence to indicate aircraft tracks.  Track information was also kept on drums, but it was more fleeting in nature—only the current values were available there.  Depending on what the settings were, track data was written to magnetic tapes for review if necessary.
 
As far as I know, none of the SAGE data would have been immediately available to law enforcement, and probably not even some time later.  It is possible that some could have been requested for a specific situation, but there were no communications set up to permit that on a regular basis.
 
David E. Casteel
Former! SAGE Computer Maintenance Officer

As far as I know, none of the SAGE data would have been immediately available to law enforcement, and probably not even some time later.  It is possible that some could have been requested for a specific situation, but there were no communications set up to permit that on a regular basis.

The first line of the all-important FBI NWA-FBI search map would seem to be in conflict with the above, in your email - we have noted this before!

The radar at McChord AFB was probably jointly used by the FAA for air traffic control purposes and both USAF and civilian FAA personnel would quite likely have been involved in the operation.  The fact that a USAF officer is the one that handed the information to the FBI does not suggest that it came from the SAGE radar operation, wherever it was located.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #856 on: December 16, 2015, 12:50:19 PM »
What is the deal with the Placard,, I just found this article claiming that it could have come from the re-enactment?

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"could have dropped off any passing 727"

"The FBI said Thursday" "could have dropped from a plane during a re-enactement"

"posted next to the rear exits of 727s"

"posted on the outside"

"Ray Mathis, FBI spokesman in Seattle, said the hijacked plane was used in a simulation of the hijacking, and, "we noticed the decal was missing after that, but not before."

"those placards have ben known to fall off on the runway," added a Boeing spokesman.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #857 on: December 16, 2015, 02:08:54 PM »
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Continued email

The AN/FSQ-7 SAGE computer had magnetic core memory, which was persistent, even when the computer was powered down.  However, upon startup, that memory was usually reset and then reloaded from magnetic tape.  Magnetic drums were used for short-term memory, and the data stored there was also persistent and had to be erased or overwritten.
 
Generally speaking, the core memory was mostly used to store instructions and temporary data values, the magnetic drums held some instructions and history information, and magnetic tapes were either program storage (used to initiate and while running) or history information about tracks for later analysis.
 
Radar history was kept on a special purpose magnetic drum, which kept several minutes of past radar blips and presented them in sequence to indicate aircraft tracks.  Track information was also kept on drums, but it was more fleeting in nature—only the current values were available there.  Depending on what the settings were, track data was written to magnetic tapes for review if necessary.
 
As far as I know, none of the SAGE data would have been immediately available to law enforcement, and probably not even some time later.  It is possible that some could have been requested for a specific situation, but there were no communications set up to permit that on a regular basis.
 
David E. Casteel
Former! SAGE Computer Maintenance Officer

As far as I know, none of the SAGE data would have been immediately available to law enforcement, and probably not even some time later.  It is possible that some could have been requested for a specific situation, but there were no communications set up to permit that on a regular basis.

The first line of the all-important FBI NWA-FBI search map would seem to be in conflict with the above, in your email - we have noted this before!

The radar at McChord AFB was probably jointly used by the FAA for air traffic control purposes and both USAF and civilian FAA personnel would quite likely have been involved in the operation.  The fact that a USAF officer is the one that handed the information to the FBI does not suggest that it came from the SAGE radar operation, wherever it was located.

R99, what do you make of Smith's statement - were you aware of this? :

"As for SAGE, Tom Kaye spoke very authoritatively about the flight path in Portland in 2011, and specifically stated that he consulted the original SAGE transcripts and "maps." But he didn't show us any documents, just a real pretty power-point and graphics."

Exactly what documents is Smith claiming Tom has ?

Specifically what "original SAGE transcripts and maps" is Smith-Kaye talking about?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 02:21:16 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #858 on: December 16, 2015, 02:20:28 PM »
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What is the deal with the Placard,, I just found this article claiming that it could have come from the re-enactment?

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"could have dropped off any passing 727"

"The FBI said Thursday" "could have dropped from a plane during a re-enactement"

"posted next to the rear exits of 727s"

"posted on the outside"

"Ray Mathis, FBI spokesman in Seattle, said the hijacked plane was used in a simulation of the hijacking, and, "we noticed the decal was missing after that, but not before."

"those placards have ben known to fall off on the runway," added a Boeing spokesman.

HMMMM... Maybe it was from the Norjack plane but not the Norjack flight.

I'd have expected the FBI to have taken numerous interior and exterior photos of the door area and stairway after the Norjack flight landed and before the re-enactment.

377
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #859 on: December 16, 2015, 02:22:32 PM »
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What is the deal with the Placard,, I just found this article claiming that it could have come from the re-enactment?

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

"could have dropped off any passing 727"

"The FBI said Thursday" "could have dropped from a plane during a re-enactement"

"posted next to the rear exits of 727s"

"posted on the outside"

"Ray Mathis, FBI spokesman in Seattle, said the hijacked plane was used in a simulation of the hijacking, and, "we noticed the decal was missing after that, but not before."

"those placards have ben known to fall off on the runway," added a Boeing spokesman.

HMMMM... Maybe it was from the Norjack plane but not the Norjack flight.

I'd have expected the FBI to have taken numerous interior and exterior photos of the door area and stairway after the Norjack flight landed and before the re-enactment.

377

and we know that was done. some of the photos have been posted. 
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #860 on: December 16, 2015, 03:04:26 PM »
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Continued email

The AN/FSQ-7 SAGE computer had magnetic core memory, which was persistent, even when the computer was powered down.  However, upon startup, that memory was usually reset and then reloaded from magnetic tape.  Magnetic drums were used for short-term memory, and the data stored there was also persistent and had to be erased or overwritten.
 
Generally speaking, the core memory was mostly used to store instructions and temporary data values, the magnetic drums held some instructions and history information, and magnetic tapes were either program storage (used to initiate and while running) or history information about tracks for later analysis.
 
Radar history was kept on a special purpose magnetic drum, which kept several minutes of past radar blips and presented them in sequence to indicate aircraft tracks.  Track information was also kept on drums, but it was more fleeting in nature—only the current values were available there.  Depending on what the settings were, track data was written to magnetic tapes for review if necessary.
 
As far as I know, none of the SAGE data would have been immediately available to law enforcement, and probably not even some time later.  It is possible that some could have been requested for a specific situation, but there were no communications set up to permit that on a regular basis.
 
David E. Casteel
Former! SAGE Computer Maintenance Officer

As far as I know, none of the SAGE data would have been immediately available to law enforcement, and probably not even some time later.  It is possible that some could have been requested for a specific situation, but there were no communications set up to permit that on a regular basis.

The first line of the all-important FBI NWA-FBI search map would seem to be in conflict with the above, in your email - we have noted this before!

The radar at McChord AFB was probably jointly used by the FAA for air traffic control purposes and both USAF and civilian FAA personnel would quite likely have been involved in the operation.  The fact that a USAF officer is the one that handed the information to the FBI does not suggest that it came from the SAGE radar operation, wherever it was located.

R99, what do you make of Smith's statement - were you aware of this? :

"As for SAGE, Tom Kaye spoke very authoritatively about the flight path in Portland in 2011, and specifically stated that he consulted the original SAGE transcripts and "maps." But he didn't show us any documents, just a real pretty power-point and graphics."

Exactly what documents is Smith claiming Tom has ?

Specifically what "original SAGE transcripts and maps" is Smith-Kaye talking about?

I don't know where Bruce got Tom's statement.  Does Tom have a security clearance?  JT has stated on DZ that the SAGE information was highly classified.  Frankly, I doubt if there are any SAGE transcripts and/or maps.

But the McChord radar, if it is the one the FAA was using (and it probably was), would be something like a weather radar display from a fixed location.  The FAA/USAF would then mark the airways and other airspace of interest to them on their various displays so that they could determine the location of a given aircraft with respect to the ground based on its radar returns.

The center controllers would then use this information in their communications with specific aircraft.  At times, the controllers would use such statements as, "NWA 305 I show you on Victor 23, 11 DME miles north of the Fort Jones VORTAC". 

Since the FAA radar information has been carefully plotted and flight checked, it is the most useful and accurate information for determining the flight path.



 
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #861 on: December 16, 2015, 11:51:32 PM »
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Continued email

The AN/FSQ-7 SAGE computer had magnetic core memory, which was persistent, even when the computer was powered down.  However, upon startup, that memory was usually reset and then reloaded from magnetic tape.  Magnetic drums were used for short-term memory, and the data stored there was also persistent and had to be erased or overwritten.
 
Generally speaking, the core memory was mostly used to store instructions and temporary data values, the magnetic drums held some instructions and history information, and magnetic tapes were either program storage (used to initiate and while running) or history information about tracks for later analysis.
 
Radar history was kept on a special purpose magnetic drum, which kept several minutes of past radar blips and presented them in sequence to indicate aircraft tracks.  Track information was also kept on drums, but it was more fleeting in nature—only the current values were available there.  Depending on what the settings were, track data was written to magnetic tapes for review if necessary.
 
As far as I know, none of the SAGE data would have been immediately available to law enforcement, and probably not even some time later.  It is possible that some could have been requested for a specific situation, but there were no communications set up to permit that on a regular basis.
 
David E. Casteel
Former! SAGE Computer Maintenance Officer

As far as I know, none of the SAGE data would have been immediately available to law enforcement, and probably not even some time later.  It is possible that some could have been requested for a specific situation, but there were no communications set up to permit that on a regular basis.

The first line of the all-important FBI NWA-FBI search map would seem to be in conflict with the above, in your email - we have noted this before!

The radar at McChord AFB was probably jointly used by the FAA for air traffic control purposes and both USAF and civilian FAA personnel would quite likely have been involved in the operation.  The fact that a USAF officer is the one that handed the information to the FBI does not suggest that it came from the SAGE radar operation, wherever it was located.

R99, what do you make of Smith's statement - were you aware of this? :

"As for SAGE, Tom Kaye spoke very authoritatively about the flight path in Portland in 2011, and specifically stated that he consulted the original SAGE transcripts and "maps." But he didn't show us any documents, just a real pretty power-point and graphics."

Exactly what documents is Smith claiming Tom has ?

Specifically what "original SAGE transcripts and maps" is Smith-Kaye talking about?

I don't know where Bruce got Tom's statement.  Does Tom have a security clearance?  JT has stated on DZ that the SAGE information was highly classified.  Frankly, I doubt if there are any SAGE transcripts and/or maps.

But the McChord radar, if it is the one the FAA was using (and it probably was), would be something like a weather radar display from a fixed location.  The FAA/USAF would then mark the airways and other airspace of interest to them on their various displays so that they could determine the location of a given aircraft with respect to the ground based on its radar returns.

The center controllers would then use this information in their communications with specific aircraft.  At times, the controllers would use such statements as, "NWA 305 I show you on Victor 23, 11 DME miles north of the Fort Jones VORTAC". 

Since the FAA radar information has been carefully plotted and flight checked, it is the most useful and accurate information for determining the flight path.

Well, Smith's claim aside, Tom says nothing about seeing or reviewing any of the documents Smith's lists Tom seeing and working with. This is easily checked by reviewing the resources Kaye lists working with in his flight path analysis, on his website here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

In fact, Kaye as much as says on his website that 'we lack these same documents', 'wouldn't it be nice to have these documents', and 'only a review of the missing documents, or better evidence, will resolve central issues about the flight path' ... then Tom goes on to accept the FBI flight path as legitimate based on FBI documents he personally reviewed at Seattle, ... and that is where the matter stands, to date. If Tom told Smith something different it behooves Tom to clear the matter up. 

If Kaye mentioned the documents Smith claims in some public talk her gave, .... I don't know. I wasn't there.

Kaye never mentioned on Dropzone any of the materials Smith references Kaye working with. Kaye himself doesn't reference such materials anywhere that I can find. 

I have to conclude Smith doesn't know what he is talking about, or he is confusing statements Kaye made, pending further verification hopefully from Kaye himself ... which very likely will never happen here!  ;) ;)

It's just another day in Smithland.

 ::)

« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 12:47:26 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #862 on: December 17, 2015, 01:40:57 AM »
I'm reviewing my notes from Tom's presentation in Portland, November 2011. A couple of things:

1. Tom said that "Larry had released transcripts," re: flight path that had never been released before.

2. I have no specific notation that Tm specifically had access to or consulted with SAGE transcripts, but that is my clear recollection.

3. Tom discussed the "FBI map" in detail, but said it was "not corroborated."

4. This flight path he named the "#1 flight path," and said it was "supported by radar from Sea-Tac and McChord."

Tom's presentation had several dimensions to it. First was to praise Larry Carr and his outreach to the public. Second was his discussion of SAGE radar and the flight path. Next was his speculation that DB Cooper paid some guy he nicknamed "Bubba" to drive him to PDX on T-Day morning, paying with the three bundolas that the driver buried eventually at T-Bar.

 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #863 on: December 17, 2015, 01:54:31 AM »
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I'm reviewing my notes from Tom's presentation in Portland, November 2011. A couple of things:

1. Tom said that "Larry had released transcripts," re: flight path that had never been released before.

2. I have no specific notation that Tm specifically had access to or consulted with SAGE transcripts, but that is my clear recollection.

3. Tom discussed the "FBI map" in detail, but said it was "not corroborated."

4. This flight path he named the "#1 flight path," and said it was "supported by radar from Sea-Tac and McChord."

Tom's presentation had several dimensions to it. First was to praise Larry Carr and his outreach to the public. Second was his discussion of SAGE radar and the flight path. Next was his speculation that DB Cooper paid some guy he nicknamed "Bubba" to drive him to PDX on T-Day morning, paying with the three bundolas that the driver buried eventually at T-Bar.

So, when you say ""As for SAGE, Tom Kaye spoke very authoritatively about the flight path in Portland in 2011, and specifically stated that he consulted the original SAGE transcripts and "maps." But he didn't show us any documents, just a real pretty power-point and graphics." ...

... you have no evidence at all that Tom "specifically stated that he consulted the original SAGE transcripts and "maps." And what you are actually talking about is the same old documents we all have, which Tom refers to on his site, and there is nothing NEW at all in what you are referring to.

Some of the problem is terminology - nomenclature - with different people using different terminology for the same docs we all are familiar with. Pretty soon its like a Tower of Babel and no two people can speak the same language.

 :) :) 
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 03:57:17 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #864 on: December 17, 2015, 04:11:43 AM »
It may be true that I have no corroborative evidence about what Tom said about SAGE, but I sure have clear recollections that he had access to original SAGE materials and used them to form the basis of his theories on the flight path. Be that as it may, I am surprised to hear that Tom has not voiced that perspective in other forums, such as his web site or the Citizen Sleuths. So, I will have to review them.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 04:12:55 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #865 on: December 17, 2015, 04:21:45 AM »
Tom and the Flight Path


In light of the fact that my recollections of Tom's pronouncements on the flight path and the availability of the SAGE transcripts might be off, I reviewed what I actually wrote in my book, which follows. It is also ready to go into the 2nd Edition, as I don't see any reason to change anything. It doesn't mention SAGE specifically, only Tom's belief that the "FBI" flight path is the most probable one to consider.

Chapter 10

Analysis of the flight path, clothing, and weather


The flip side of the parachute examination is: where did Cooper land, even if he died upon impact? The key to answering that question is knowing where was Flight 305 when Cooper exited the plane, and for that we need precise information on the flight path and the time of the jump. Surprisingly these issues are not fully resolved, which begs another question why not? Is it due simply to the turgidity of bureaucracy? Or is there a cover-up?

Tom Kaye, the leader of the Citizen Sleuth team, attempted to clarify these issues at the 2011 Symposium using never-before released FBI documents, including radar maps, which he said had provided 100% coverage of the landing zones. Kaye said the maps he consulted were an amalgam of radar transcripts from McChord Air Base in Tacoma and the FAA’s Seattle Center, but he did not display any of the original data.  He also stated that these advanced radar systems would have cost about $70 billion in today’s money.

In addition, Kaye accepted the claim that elk hunter Carroll Hicks found Flight 305’s instructional placard for deploying the airstairs near Silver Lake, Washington, and thus places 305 smack dab in V-23. Kaye also acknowledged that the placard most likely drifted about 2.5 miles eastward in the wind, but said it was still within V-23.

Graphically, the flight pathway that Kaye presented appears to be a zig-zag, generally heading southward, but why 305 didn't fly a straight line is unknown. Nonetheless, Kaye said that after Silver Lake, 305 then passed over nearby Toledo, Pigeon Springs, Ariel, Highland and Battleground, Washington, finally crossing the Columbia in the western Portland metro area.

Kaye accepted the general assumption that Cooper jumped somewhere near Battleground and drifted northeast to Ariel, but he challenged the conventional wisdom on the type of landscape within LZ-A. For years most people assumed that Cooper landed in a dense and dangerous forest, but Kaye reviewed topographical maps of the area and found there were very few sections that would be considered heavily forested or “wilderness” at the time of the skyjacking. “There were no ‘death woods’ in 1971,” he declared, characterizing the landing area as a mix of trees, hills and farm fields, and filled with light from homes and developed areas. In fact, Kaye described LZ-A as decent spot to land because it was a benign agricultural area. Kaye added that there would be a lot of ambient light from the houses, stores, and street lights in the area, all of which would have bounced off of the clouds as well.

“There was no snow,” he stated, casting further doubt on the FBI's decision to suspend the initial ground search. Earlier in the symposium, Geoffrey Gray had shown FBI documents claiming the LZ had too much snow and the ground search needed to be postponed until April.

Additionally, Kaye delivered more details on the cloud cover, saying two cloud layers existed—one of “broken clouds” at 3,000 feet, and a second “overcast” condition of at least 85% cloud cover at 5,000 feet. Hence, Kaye said that Cooper could not see the ground from an elevation of 10,000 feet, nor could anyone on the ground see Cooper bail.

As for flying east of Victor 23 over the Washougal, as espoused by Himmelsbach and Rataczak, Kaye said that he had not found any credible evidence to support this assertion. In addition, Kaye rejected the hypothesis that the money floated down to Tina Bar. “There was no natural means to move the money to Tina Bar,” he said, stunning the Portland audience. He also suggested that the money was delivered to the beach by human hands.

Kaye speculated that Cooper had landed successfully and walked out of the LZ. Then, he postulated, Cooper met some guy and paid him for a ride to Portland Airport using a few bundles of ransom money. Afterwards, Kaye posited, the driver buried the money at Tina Bar out of a pique of guilt and fear.

However, few audience members believed Kaye then or now, and the issue of how the money got to Tina Bar remains wide open.

« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 04:22:23 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #866 on: December 17, 2015, 01:15:05 PM »
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What is the deal with the Placard,, I just found this article claiming that it could have come from the re-enactment?

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

"could have dropped off any passing 727"

"The FBI said Thursday" "could have dropped from a plane during a re-enactement"

"posted next to the rear exits of 727s"

"posted on the outside"

"Ray Mathis, FBI spokesman in Seattle, said the hijacked plane was used in a simulation of the hijacking, and, "we noticed the decal was missing after that, but not before."

"those placards have ben known to fall off on the runway," added a Boeing spokesman.

To add, in another article the Sheriff completely contradicts the FBI statement.. saying that they knew within two days of the "hijack" that the Placard was missing.

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There is no reason for the Sheriff to lie,,  so there are only two possibilities,,

There are two Placards, one inside and one outside, maybe the sheriff was referring to the outside one missing initially, there seems to be confusion between the two, a Boeing spokesman said they find them on the runway all the time,, maybe the outside ones not the inside ones.

Or,

the FBI statement is intentionally misleading.. WHY??
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #867 on: December 17, 2015, 01:34:06 PM »


« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 01:36:00 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #868 on: December 17, 2015, 04:26:34 PM »
Quote
Graphically, the flight pathway that Kaye presented appears to be a zig-zag, generally heading southward, but why 305 didn't fly a straight line is unknown. Nonetheless, Kaye said that after Silver Lake, 305 then passed over nearby Toledo, Pigeon Springs, Ariel, Highland and Battleground, Washington, finally crossing the Columbia in the western Portland metro area.

Actually, Toledo would be the first area noted. then Silver Lake which is south of Toledo.


305 was on V-23, but not "smack dab" on it.....
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 08:16:09 PM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #869 on: December 17, 2015, 11:43:02 PM »
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Quote
Graphically, the flight pathway that Kaye presented appears to be a zig-zag, generally heading southward, but why 305 didn't fly a straight line is unknown. Nonetheless, Kaye said that after Silver Lake, 305 then passed over nearby Toledo, Pigeon Springs, Ariel, Highland and Battleground, Washington, finally crossing the Columbia in the western Portland metro area.

Actually, Toledo would be the first area noted. then Silver Lake which is south of Toledo.


305 was on V-23, but not "smack dab" on it.....

Then Salt Lake City, Edmunton, Chicago, San Francisco, Des Moines, Indianapolis, Buffalo, Quebec City, Amarillo, and finally landed at Reno in 1975! What a trip it was!  ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 11:43:56 PM by georger »