Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 1102966 times)

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #825 on: November 12, 2015, 02:44:15 PM »
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Found this article about the early search - putting it here to get away from personal issues going on elsewhere.

Why is this important? It's important because its information related to who knew what when, who did what when, all related to confidence in the flight path in the early stages of the investigation as evidenced by the actual search(s) going on by various people. Someone had to be coordinating these searches. We apparently have no solid info about that in spite of many people writing books!  :o

Excepts from the article above written on Nov 30th (?) Assoc Press Woodland WA, indicate Boeing freely advised people the Boeing 727 could be jumped. Does this debunk the myth spread on forums that this was Top Secret ?

[ Woodland WA (Assoc Press): Thurs Nov 30, 1971.  POLICE LEAVE SEARCH FOR BAIL-OUT HIJACKER TO FBI. ]
“FBI officials in Portland and Seattle say they will continue their pursuit of the man … but local law enforcement agencies have turned to other chores … said a spokesman for the Clark County Sherriff’s Dept on Monday Nov 27th.

Officials say they had concentrated their search around the Woodland because the jet liner’s flight recorder had indicated small shifts in the plane’s air position as it passed over the area.

A Boeing spokesperson said the 727 is the only commercial jet liner from which a person could bail out successfully. The passenger stairs lower vertically from the tail and “it would be a very safe drop away from the flaps and engines”, the (Boeing) spokesman said.

Scott said that ‘a cockpit indicator showed the rear boarding stairs were lowered at the time the crew last talked to the hijacker’ (near Woodland).   

Clark County Under-Sherriff Tom McDowell summed it up at the end of the second day of searching on Friday (  Nov 30th  ? )   “we’re looking either for a parachute or a hole in the ground."
 
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 02:54:13 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #826 on: November 12, 2015, 03:07:52 PM »
Once Cooper had jumped it was pretty obvious that a 727 could drop something inflight  via the rear stairs without or losing control or crashing.

Prior to that few knew. The flight manual says nothing. The crew didn't know nor did NWA ops. Boeing had to be called.

Not sure if it was truly classified info, but it was not widely known and certainly not publicized by Boeing prior to Coopers jump.

The Thailand SAT 727 jumps appear to have the stairs removed to facilitate fast sequential jumper exits or pallet drops.

377
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 04:09:07 PM by 377 »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #827 on: November 12, 2015, 04:16:52 PM »
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Excepts from the article above written on Nov 30th (?) Assoc Press Woodland WA, indicate Boeing freely advised people the Boeing 727 could be jumped. Does this debunk the myth spread on forums that this was Top Secret ?

[ Woodland WA (Assoc Press): Thurs Nov 30, 1971.  POLICE LEAVE SEARCH FOR BAIL-OUT HIJACKER TO FBI. ]
“FBI officials in Portland and Seattle say they will continue their pursuit of the man … but local law enforcement agencies have turned to other chores … said a spokesman for the Clark County Sherriff’s Dept on Monday Nov 27th.

Officials say they had concentrated their search around the Woodland because the jet liner’s flight recorder had indicated small shifts in the plane’s air position as it passed over the area.

A Boeing spokesperson said the 727 is the only commercial jet liner from which a person could bail out successfully. The passenger stairs lower vertically from the tail and “it would be a very safe drop away from the flaps and engines”, the (Boeing) spokesman said.

Scott said that ‘a cockpit indicator showed the rear boarding stairs were lowered at the time the crew last talked to the hijacker’ (near Woodland).   

Clark County Under-Sherriff Tom McDowell summed it up at the end of the second day of searching on Friday (  Nov 30th  ? )   “we’re looking either for a parachute or a hole in the ground."


Yes, who was coordinating? More importantly, who canceled the search on the Monday after Thanksgiving? Farrell? Or did it go higher? SAC Seattle?, whose name I don't know. Hoover?

Another strange bit - GG says the official termination was seven days after the skyjacking, which would put it a few days after Monday. At the Portland Symposium, he showed a copy of a FBI teletype message to DC claiming too much snow.

Does anyone know the name of the Seattle SAC? It's odd that it has never been publicized - not even at the WSHM exhibit.

BTW: The "second" day of the search would be Friday, November 26, not the 30th. But that was really McDowell's first day of searching, according to what he has told me.

BTW II: Himms misspelled McDowell's name in NORJAK. Ralph calls Tom, "McDonald." Himms does that kind of thing with frequency. Calls the pilot, Bill Radazak.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 04:18:14 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #828 on: November 12, 2015, 04:23:15 PM »
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Once Cooper had jumped it was pretty obvious that a 727 could drop something inflight  via the rear stairs without or losing control or crashing.

Prior to that few knew. The flight manual says nothing. The crew didn't know nor did NWA ops. Boeing had to be called.

Not sure if it was truly classified info, but it was not widely known and certainly not publicized by Boeing prior to Coopers jump.

The Thailand SAT 727 jumps appear to have the stairs removed to facilitate fast sequential jumper exits or pallet drops.

377

That's my view, as well.
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #829 on: November 12, 2015, 04:59:11 PM »
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A Boeing spokesperson said the 727 is the only commercial jet liner from which a person could bail out successfully.
 

A large number of subsequent hijackers and skydivers, including 377, have proven otherwise. 8)
 

Offline 377

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #830 on: November 12, 2015, 05:34:52 PM »
Jet jump wasn't hard at all. Just go. The wind blast was strong but no huge deal. I was carrying $85 in negotiable US currency. Lived to tell the story.

One exit that was hard involved an ancient Schweizer 2 seat wooden glider, 1950s vintage. I couldn't fit in the seat with my gear on so they removed the canopy. Had to ride with my legs hanging  over the side of the cockpit. On the ride up behind a crop duster tow plane, we hit some turbulence at about 500 feet. I started hearing loud groans, pops and cracking noises that scared the hell out of me. I thought about termites, dry rot and the owner joking that he had recently bought the glider for only $50. I prayed that we could get a few hundred feet higher before the wings came off. We released the tow cable at about 4500 feet and flew over a cornfield area to jump. When it came time to exit I had a hell of a time getting out of my scrunched in position as there was nothing above me to to grab onto. The glider pilot sitting behind me saw my difficulty and yelled: "I'm going to do some negative Gs, you will float up and then just roll out." It worked. I was very glad to get out of that matchstick airplane. It looked OK but those noises when it was stressed told me that its airframe structure was quite tired.

377
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #831 on: November 12, 2015, 11:39:23 PM »
Maybe some of you got a note from Shutter - he is having internet issues right now and will be back asap ... if he isnt here already? So passing this on ....  :)
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #832 on: November 12, 2015, 11:46:11 PM »
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Excepts from the article above written on Nov 30th (?) Assoc Press Woodland WA, indicate Boeing freely advised people the Boeing 727 could be jumped. Does this debunk the myth spread on forums that this was Top Secret ?

[ Woodland WA (Assoc Press): Thurs Nov 30, 1971.  POLICE LEAVE SEARCH FOR BAIL-OUT HIJACKER TO FBI. ]
“FBI officials in Portland and Seattle say they will continue their pursuit of the man … but local law enforcement agencies have turned to other chores … said a spokesman for the Clark County Sherriff’s Dept on Monday Nov 27th.

Officials say they had concentrated their search around the Woodland because the jet liner’s flight recorder had indicated small shifts in the plane’s air position as it passed over the area.

A Boeing spokesperson said the 727 is the only commercial jet liner from which a person could bail out successfully. The passenger stairs lower vertically from the tail and “it would be a very safe drop away from the flaps and engines”, the (Boeing) spokesman said.

Scott said that ‘a cockpit indicator showed the rear boarding stairs were lowered at the time the crew last talked to the hijacker’ (near Woodland).   

Clark County Under-Sherriff Tom McDowell summed it up at the end of the second day of searching on Friday (  Nov 30th  ? )   “we’re looking either for a parachute or a hole in the ground."


Yes, who was coordinating? More importantly, who canceled the search on the Monday after Thanksgiving? Farrell? Or did it go higher? SAC Seattle?, whose name I don't know. Hoover?

Another strange bit - GG says the official termination was seven days after the skyjacking, which would put it a few days after Monday. At the Portland Symposium, he showed a copy of a FBI teletype message to DC claiming too much snow.

Does anyone know the name of the Seattle SAC? It's odd that it has never been publicized - not even at the WSHM exhibit.

BTW: The "second" day of the search would be Friday, November 26, not the 30th. But that was really McDowell's first day of searching, according to what he has told me.

BTW II: Himms misspelled McDowell's name in NORJAK. Ralph calls Tom, "McDonald." Himms does that kind of thing with frequency. Calls the pilot, Bill Radazak.

It's no criticism but my impression is this early period hasn't drawn much interest at forums. There are lose ends to be pieced together ...
 
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #833 on: November 13, 2015, 01:50:56 AM »
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Jet jump wasn't hard at all. Just go. The wind blast was strong but no huge deal. I was carrying $85 in negotiable US currency. Lived to tell the story.

One exit that was hard involved an ancient Schweizer 2 seat wooden glider, 1950s vintage. I couldn't fit in the seat with my gear on so they removed the canopy. Had to ride with my legs hanging  over the side of the cockpit. On the ride up behind a crop duster tow plane, we hit some turbulence at about 500 feet. I started hearing loud groans, pops and cracking noises that scared the hell out of me. I thought about termites, dry rot and the owner joking that he had recently bought the glider for only $50. I prayed that we could get a few hundred feet higher before the wings came off. We released the tow cable at about 4500 feet and flew over a cornfield area to jump. When it came time to exit I had a hell of a time getting out of my scrunched in position as there was nothing above me to to grab onto. The glider pilot sitting behind me saw my difficulty and yelled: "I'm going to do some negative Gs, you will float up and then just roll out." It worked. I was very glad to get out of that matchstick airplane. It looked OK but those noises when it was stressed told me that its airframe structure was quite tired.

377

That must have been your first ride in a glider.  If you have had experience in powered aircraft before your first glider flight, your initial impression will probably be how quite things are in the glider.  And you can hear the wing skins of metal covered gliders do their oil canning routine plus you can hear the "bubbling" and transitioning of the air boundary layer adjacent to the glider skin.

In the late 1960s, I was headed from the Palmdale/Pearblossom, CA area to Bishop in a glider.  At the time this matter happened, I was north of Mojave and over the Sierra Nevada Mountains on the west side of Owens Valley.  I was quite high with respect to sea level, but only a couple of thousand feet above the mountains with a scatter layer of cumulus clouds not to far above me.

I happened to notice a contrail off to the east of the Owens Valley and could see an aircraft at high altitude headed south and really moving along.  I also knew that there was an USAF high speed corridor where he was flying.  After watching that high speed aircraft for a few seconds, I got back to my business.

Only a minute or two later, there was a tremendous boom and I almost jumped out of my skin (not to mention the glider as well).  The only thing in a glider that could make a noise like that was the wing spar breaking and shedding the wings.  Fortunately, within a couple of seconds I realized that the noise must have been a sonic boom from the aircraft I had seen off to the east.

After a fast check of the glider, I continued on my merry way up to Bishop and arrived there shortly before sunset.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #834 on: November 13, 2015, 10:10:40 PM »
I did another speed test checking distance per mile...

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #835 on: November 13, 2015, 10:22:35 PM »
Quote
Officials say they had concentrated their search around the Woodland because the jet liner’s flight recorder had indicated small shifts in the plane’s air position as it passed over the area.

As it passed over the area? I wish they would of gave more details in this. seems a lot of people heard, or had knowledge of the FDR...

 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #836 on: November 13, 2015, 10:29:03 PM »
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Quote
Officials say they had concentrated their search around the Woodland because the jet liner’s flight recorder had indicated small shifts in the plane’s air position as it passed over the area.

As it passed over the area? I wish they would of gave more details in this. seems a lot of people heard, or had knowledge of the FDR...

Keep in mind that the FDR stayed with the airliner and did not arrive back in Seattle until the afternoon of Thanksgiving Day.  So the LE people were already zeroing in on Woodland before they had access to the FDR.  This means that other things also pointed to the Woodland area.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #837 on: November 14, 2015, 03:15:54 AM »
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Quote
Officials say they had concentrated their search around the Woodland because the jet liner’s flight recorder had indicated small shifts in the plane’s air position as it passed over the area.

As it passed over the area? I wish they would of gave more details in this. seems a lot of people heard, or had knowledge of the FDR...

Keep in mind that the FDR stayed with the airliner and did not arrive back in Seattle until the afternoon of Thanksgiving Day.  So the LE people were already zeroing in on Woodland before they had access to the FDR.  This means that other things also pointed to the Woodland area.

I was surprised by reference to the FDR also. So far as I know the FDR had nothing to do plotting the dropzone. The FDR isn't even mentioned as a working variable in the official cover letter to the NWA-FBI Search Map; other factors are listed and mentioned. I also believe, from correlative evidence, that Woodland had been identified ... maybe by as early a 8:30pm before the plane was even near Reno.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #838 on: November 15, 2015, 01:16:12 PM »
Les Earnest is well known to digital cognoscenti for his contributions to artificial intelligence, robotics and the Internet, but few know of his warning that inadvertent erections could start a nuclear war:

In the 1950s I helped design the SAGE [Semi-Automatic Ground Environment] air defense system … when we reviewed the BOMARC [Missile] launch control system, one of our engineers noticed a rather serious defect: if the launch command system was tested, … the “test” switch was then returned to “operate” without individually resetting the control systems in each missile that had been tested, they would all immediately erect and launch! Needless to say, that “feature” was modified rather soon after we mentioned it to Boeing. …

The SAGE system used land lines to transmit launch commands to the missile site and these lines were duplexed for reliability. … However on examination we discovered that if both lines were bad at the same time, the system would … amplify whatever noise was there and interpret it as a stream of random bits. … Fortunately, we were able to show that getting a complete set of acceptable guidance commands within this time was extremely improbable, so this failure mode did not present a nuclear safety threat. The official name of the first BOMARC model was IM-99A, so I wrote a report about this problem titled Inadvertent erection of the IM-99A.

Les concludes that:

SAGE was a gigantic fraud on taxpayers in that it was a “peacetime defense system” that would malfunction under an actual attack, much like France’s Maginot Line did in World War 2. … SAGE thus gave rise to a corrupt military-industrial-political establishment that has produced a string of largely useless command-control and weapons projects such as President Reagan’s phony “Star Wars” defense program and the current ongoing deployment of anti-missile systems that don’t work. But that is another story.

Whether or not one agrees with Les’ assessment of missile defense, in the Alice-in-Wonderland world of nuclear strategy, some supposed safeguards have the potential to turn around and bite us. A short clip from Peter Sellers’ classic movie Dr. Strangelove makes that point all too well. In this scene, the president has just been informed that a rogue general is in the process of starting World War III:
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 01:16:40 PM by Shutter »
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #839 on: November 15, 2015, 02:03:58 PM »
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Les Earnest is well known to digital cognoscenti for his contributions to artificial intelligence, robotics and the Internet, but few know of his warning that inadvertent erections could start a nuclear war:

In the 1950s I helped design the SAGE [Semi-Automatic Ground Environment] air defense system … when we reviewed the BOMARC [Missile] launch control system, one of our engineers noticed a rather serious defect: if the launch command system was tested, … the “test” switch was then returned to “operate” without individually resetting the control systems in each missile that had been tested, they would all immediately erect and launch! Needless to say, that “feature” was modified rather soon after we mentioned it to Boeing. …

The SAGE system used land lines to transmit launch commands to the missile site and these lines were duplexed for reliability. … However on examination we discovered that if both lines were bad at the same time, the system would … amplify whatever noise was there and interpret it as a stream of random bits. … Fortunately, we were able to show that getting a complete set of acceptable guidance commands within this time was extremely improbable, so this failure mode did not present a nuclear safety threat. The official name of the first BOMARC model was IM-99A, so I wrote a report about this problem titled Inadvertent erection of the IM-99A.

Les concludes that:

SAGE was a gigantic fraud on taxpayers in that it was a “peacetime defense system” that would malfunction under an actual attack, much like France’s Maginot Line did in World War 2. … SAGE thus gave rise to a corrupt military-industrial-political establishment that has produced a string of largely useless command-control and weapons projects such as President Reagan’s phony “Star Wars” defense program and the current ongoing deployment of anti-missile systems that don’t work. But that is another story.

Whether or not one agrees with Les’ assessment of missile defense, in the Alice-in-Wonderland world of nuclear strategy, some supposed safeguards have the potential to turn around and bite us. A short clip from Peter Sellers’ classic movie Dr. Strangelove makes that point all too well. In this scene, the president has just been informed that a rogue general is in the process of starting World War III:

In my opinion, SAGE and any other such system was not involved in the Cooper hijacking and would not even have been useful.

The only radar data that would be useful in the Cooper matter is the information that the FAA air traffic controllers saw on their screens and used by them to control air traffic.