Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 1102961 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #810 on: October 30, 2015, 10:28:33 PM »
Interesting read about the SAGE radar...


CPT John P DeWerth's Sage Memories - This is  the first
in an ongoing series John will be sharing with us!

We were constant having "unknowns" in our sector NYADS. This was usually
the Navy with their carrier ops. Sometimes they would let us know most
of the time not. We used to have to track them down to find out. One day
we had an unknown pop up out of sector center proceeding straight North
at mach 3. We scrambled the interceptors to find out what was going on.
and when they got there, no one was seen. So they turned around an came
back home. We checked with the site programming folks. System
Development Corporation, and told them what had happened. One of the
programmers when chasing through the code and came to the conclusion
that the only way that might have happened was if we had an instruction
failure on the B register. He proceeded to write a 1 card diagnostic
which exercised the B register when run and sure enough it failed. which
when on to prove that things  weren't  always  as they  seemed.


Another time a USAF LTC came down from North  Bay , Canada. He was
attached to the Atomic Energy Commission.  He was on a fact finding
mission. I met with him and  the programming site manager. He was
trying to find out if the maintenance folks could launch Bomarc
missiles. I said yes. And I  proceeded to tell him how. The Senior
Director had a keyed console. The maintenance  people had a console
which had a plug board to make it look like any other console in the
building  so we could diagnose  problems  ahead of going to fix them.
that console DID NOT have a key. Going through the process of plugging
up our console to look like Air Surveillance, Identification, And Weapons
we could have launched a Bomarc. The LTC asked the site manager if that
was right and he said yes. That was not the answer he wanted to hear. I
guess maybe I was the only one who figured it out. I seems we were not
on the Human Reliability Program. No one had checked the maintenance
people to find out if any one had a screw loose. I don't know what the
ever did because I separated shortly after that.

On of the features of the AN/FSQ-7 was a speaker attached to a bit in
the accumulator. We listened to the program cycle and after a day or so
you consciously forgot about the noise but unconsciously you knew it was
there. You could be doing work, but the minute the sound changed. you'd
run to see what was up. That would be the time we'd switch over to the
standby machine


When I first got to the site my chief NCO gave me a tour of the second
floor and the computer room.  One of the things in the computer room was
a Polaroid camera on a roll around stand. I asked what it was for and he
told me it was a piece of test equipment. I said you have to be kidding.
He said no. He said we used it to take pictures of the console lights.
It helps us to trouble shoot problems.

 

John P DeWerth
CPT USAF
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #811 on: October 31, 2015, 12:37:37 AM »
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Interesting read about the SAGE radar...


CPT John P DeWerth's Sage Memories - This is  the first
in an ongoing series John will be sharing with us!

We were constant having "unknowns" in our sector NYADS. This was usually
the Navy with their carrier ops. Sometimes they would let us know most
of the time not. We used to have to track them down to find out. One day
we had an unknown pop up out of sector center proceeding straight North
at mach 3. We scrambled the interceptors to find out what was going on.
and when they got there, no one was seen. So they turned around an came
back home. We checked with the site programming folks. System
Development Corporation, and told them what had happened. One of the
programmers when chasing through the code and came to the conclusion
that the only way that might have happened was if we had an instruction
failure on the B register. He proceeded to write a 1 card diagnostic
which exercised the B register when run and sure enough it failed. which
when on to prove that things  weren't  always  as they  seemed.


Another time a USAF LTC came down from North  Bay , Canada. He was
attached to the Atomic Energy Commission.  He was on a fact finding
mission. I met with him and  the programming site manager. He was
trying to find out if the maintenance folks could launch Bomarc
missiles. I said yes. And I  proceeded to tell him how. The Senior
Director had a keyed console. The maintenance  people had a console
which had a plug board to make it look like any other console in the
building  so we could diagnose  problems  ahead of going to fix them.
that console DID NOT have a key. Going through the process of plugging
up our console to look like Air Surveillance, Identification, And Weapons
we could have launched a Bomarc. The LTC asked the site manager if that
was right and he said yes. That was not the answer he wanted to hear. I
guess maybe I was the only one who figured it out. I seems we were not
on the Human Reliability Program. No one had checked the maintenance
people to find out if any one had a screw loose. I don't know what the
ever did because I separated shortly after that.

On of the features of the AN/FSQ-7 was a speaker attached to a bit in
the accumulator. We listened to the program cycle and after a day or so
you consciously forgot about the noise but unconsciously you knew it was
there. You could be doing work, but the minute the sound changed. you'd
run to see what was up. That would be the time we'd switch over to the
standby machine


When I first got to the site my chief NCO gave me a tour of the second
floor and the computer room.  One of the things in the computer room was
a Polaroid camera on a roll around stand. I asked what it was for and he
told me it was a piece of test equipment. I said you have to be kidding.
He said no. He said we used it to take pictures of the console lights.
It helps us to trouble shoot problems.

John P DeWerth
CPT USAF

Another facility I am aware of (back in the day) had Polaroid cameras that could be attached directly to radar screens, to give a permanent record of a screen _ there was no other way of preserving screen images. By today's standards technology back then was primitive. I wonder if any of this applies to the Cooper case? Ive never seen any post asking if there were Polaroid shots of the radar screen(s) ?
 
In research labs during this era Polaroid cameras that attached to oscilloscopes and other display screens were common. I personally have used them in this context (back in the 60s and 70s).
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 12:40:00 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #812 on: October 31, 2015, 01:08:54 AM »
I found a picture of a Sage radar screen. whats interesting is it appears to have X's/crosses?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 01:11:05 AM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #813 on: October 31, 2015, 01:36:08 AM »
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I found a picture of a Sage radar screen. whats interesting is it appears to have X's/crosses?

How large is that screen. Any photos of the console ... especially anything showing Polaroid camera attachments?

I wonder if the tapes they could make could be re-displayed?

I dont remember that we discussed any of these points on Dropzone but I could be wrong.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 01:36:54 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #814 on: October 31, 2015, 01:43:44 AM »
This is McChord in the photo
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #815 on: October 31, 2015, 03:55:11 AM »
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This is McChord in the photo

No visible camera mount on that console, but a large 4x5 format Polaroid on a wheely would capture a large portion of the screen. My guess is their technology allowed them to play back a tape and get a visual image on a monitor, but that's just a guess based on other systems of the time (IBM?) that had replay capability. 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #816 on: October 31, 2015, 06:10:01 PM »
I emailed a gentleman who was a Sage radar operator back in Cooper's time. unlike some of the witnesses who come forward with clear minds about what happened that evening, Bruce seems to be normal.  ;D

Dave,
44+ years is a long time to try and remember where you were and what you were doing on one particular day. At that time, I was stationed at the 761st Radar Sq. in North Bend, Or.
The SAGE system was state of the art, in its time, and I am sure the incident was tracked at SAGE 25th Air Division at McChord AFB which was the sector headquarters for NORAD. Our responsibility at the site would be to monitor and track direction and altitude of the aircraft. This would have all been done through the computer technology of the day.
I do not remember any talk of it within the ranks of my duty area. Upon separation from active duty in the USAF, I took an oath to not divulge any sensitive info. Although I am probably sure there is no sensitive issues here, I do still stand by that oath.
If there are any records available, I would think they would be housed at NORAD headquarters in Colorado. I wish I could be of more help, but I do not recall being on duty at the time.
Bruce .........
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 06:29:40 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #817 on: October 31, 2015, 10:52:54 PM »

NORAD Public Affairs (719) 554-6889
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Community Relations (719) 556-4650 DSN 834
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #818 on: November 01, 2015, 12:09:10 AM »
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I emailed a gentleman who was a Sage radar operator back in Cooper's time. unlike some of the witnesses who come forward with clear minds about what happened that evening, Bruce seems to be normal.  ;D

Dave,
44+ years is a long time to try and remember where you were and what you were doing on one particular day. At that time, I was stationed at the 761st Radar Sq. in North Bend, Or.
The SAGE system was state of the art, in its time, and I am sure the incident was tracked at SAGE 25th Air Division at McChord AFB which was the sector headquarters for NORAD. Our responsibility at the site would be to monitor and track direction and altitude of the aircraft. This would have all been done through the computer technology of the day.
I do not remember any talk of it within the ranks of my duty area. Upon separation from active duty in the USAF, I took an oath to not divulge any sensitive info. Although I am probably sure there is no sensitive issues here, I do still stand by that oath.
If there are any records available, I would think they would be housed at NORAD headquarters in Colorado. I wish I could be of more help, but I do not recall being on duty at the time.
Bruce .........

Here is a clear cut instance of a oath of confidentiality, as per our previous discussion that Rataczak may be under such a stipulation ?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #819 on: November 01, 2015, 12:20:46 AM »
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I emailed a gentleman who was a Sage radar operator back in Cooper's time. unlike some of the witnesses who come forward with clear minds about what happened that evening, Bruce seems to be normal.  ;D

Dave,
44+ years is a long time to try and remember where you were and what you were doing on one particular day. At that time, I was stationed at the 761st Radar Sq. in North Bend, Or.
The SAGE system was state of the art, in its time, and I am sure the incident was tracked at SAGE 25th Air Division at McChord AFB which was the sector headquarters for NORAD. Our responsibility at the site would be to monitor and track direction and altitude of the aircraft. This would have all been done through the computer technology of the day.
I do not remember any talk of it within the ranks of my duty area. Upon separation from active duty in the USAF, I took an oath to not divulge any sensitive info. Although I am probably sure there is no sensitive issues here, I do still stand by that oath.
If there are any records available, I would think they would be housed at NORAD headquarters in Colorado. I wish I could be of more help, but I do not recall being on duty at the time.
Bruce .........

Here is a clear cut instance of a oath of confidentiality, as per our previous discussion that Rataczak may be under such a stipulation ?


I don't know. you would think he would mention something like this. it would of been easier to mention this while being interviewed....take the quick and easy way out....maybe Northwest put pressure on them, I don't know.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 12:25:25 AM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #820 on: November 01, 2015, 01:36:41 AM »
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I emailed a gentleman who was a Sage radar operator back in Cooper's time. unlike some of the witnesses who come forward with clear minds about what happened that evening, Bruce seems to be normal.  ;D

Dave,
44+ years is a long time to try and remember where you were and what you were doing on one particular day. At that time, I was stationed at the 761st Radar Sq. in North Bend, Or.
The SAGE system was state of the art, in its time, and I am sure the incident was tracked at SAGE 25th Air Division at McChord AFB which was the sector headquarters for NORAD. Our responsibility at the site would be to monitor and track direction and altitude of the aircraft. This would have all been done through the computer technology of the day.
I do not remember any talk of it within the ranks of my duty area. Upon separation from active duty in the USAF, I took an oath to not divulge any sensitive info. Although I am probably sure there is no sensitive issues here, I do still stand by that oath.
If there are any records available, I would think they would be housed at NORAD headquarters in Colorado. I wish I could be of more help, but I do not recall being on duty at the time.
Bruce .........

Here is a clear cut instance of a oath of confidentiality, as per our previous discussion that Rataczak may be under such a stipulation ?


I don't know. you would think he would mention something like this. it would of been easier to mention this while being interviewed....take the quick and easy way out....maybe Northwest put pressure on them, I don't know.

It may have to do with confidentiality agreements vis-a-vis employment where FAA "incidents" are involved. The trigger for confidentiality, explained to me, is an "incident" and evidently the FAA has different levels of "Incident" ?

R99 should know about this if it is real ? I'm probably not stating this appropriately...
 
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 01:39:21 AM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #821 on: November 01, 2015, 11:26:26 AM »
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It may have to do with confidentiality agreements vis-a-vis employment where FAA "incidents" are involved. The trigger for confidentiality, explained to me, is an "incident" and evidently the FAA has different levels of "Incident" ?

R99 should know about this if it is real ? I'm probably not stating this appropriately...

To the best of my knowledge, there is no confidentiality agreement that would automatically kick in because of an "incident".  But as 377 and other lawyers are my witnesses, no government organization or commercial enterprise wants its employees running their mouths about matters that could involve their public reputation or subject them to some form of legal sanction or civil liability.

Consequently, the first advice you usually get from you lawyer is to shut up and let him do all the talking.  In the case of a government organization, the Public Information Officer would be the designated talker.

But the Cooper hijacking is a bit different since the talking that we are interested in was done over "public" air traffic control radio frequencies and could be, and was, heard by anyone with a VHF radio tuned to the correct frequency.  Our present problem is just getting someone who did hear those transmissions, or saw the complete radio transcripts that we are interested in, to speak up. 
 

Offline 377

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #822 on: November 02, 2015, 02:51:25 AM »
Describes 35mm film use.

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377
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #823 on: November 02, 2015, 04:07:59 AM »
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Describes 35mm film use.

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377

That's right... we actually had one of these contraptions in a lab I worked in. What a pain in the ___! The boss wanted a running visual record of neuron nucleus micro-electrode penetrations where the resting potential of the neuron (cell) drops like a rock when the nucleus is penetrated, then of course he wanted a visual record (called a dose response curve) of the electrical potential in the nucleus itself as various drugs were administered to the bath the tissue was suspended in. The experiments were delicate and demanding enough lowering micro electrodes into tissue hoping to get inside an individual neuron .... now we have this $%$#@ 35mm camera to run also! Then we (meaning me!) had to process the film too ... and we were competing with the Germans etc looking for an early publication date(s) to sustain funding ... so everything was rushed and demanding. Yes. I can tell you about these 35mm cameras!  ;) 
 
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 04:21:32 AM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #824 on: November 12, 2015, 03:40:20 AM »
Found this article about the early search - putting it here to get away from personal issues going on elsewhere.

Why is this important? It's important because its information related to who knew what when, who did what when, all related to confidence in the flight path in the early stages of the investigation as evidenced by the actual search(s) going on by various people. Someone had to be coordinating these searches. We apparently have no solid info about that in spite of many people writing books!  :o
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 04:20:14 AM by georger »