Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 916815 times)

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #780 on: October 25, 2015, 10:55:41 PM »
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From a [very early] post by R99:

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Remember that if the airliner was bypassing Portland on the west side, as suggested by some of the maps and book narratives, it would basically fly over the Columbia River for several miles and would not be further west than the west side of the river as it passed Tina Bar.

What maps? what narratives? Are the ARINC printouts the only evidence for the western route?

Quote
The direct route from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection passes almost directly (within a few hundred feet) overhead of Tina Bar.  The distance from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection is 67.0 nautical miles.

According to a note in the "FBI files" that are online and a copy of the ARINC teletypewriter print outs, the airliner reported at 8:22 PM PST that it was 23 DME miles south of the Portland (now Battleground) VORTAC.  However, an individual from NWA gives the time of arrival of that voice message as 8:18 PM PST in Seattle which was phone-patched into the ARINC radio communications.

On the direct route from the Malay to Canby Intersections, this corresponds to a point that is 19 nautical miles south of Tina Bar.  If the airliner had a ground speed of exactly 3.0 nautical miles per minute, this would put the airliner 6:20 (minutes:seconds) south of Tina Bar.  This means that the airliner passed overhead of Tina bar at about 8:11:40 PM PST.

On the "FBI Map" that Shutter has been using, there are several red cross marks near the Canby Intersection that can be aligned to show that they are on a straight line between the Malay and Canby Intersections.  These lines were apparently drawn by the FAA controller as he vectored the chase aircraft to the airliner.

Both Himmelsbach's and Tosaw's books state that the chase aircraft in the Portland area were vectored to the airliner on the west and southwest side of Portland.  Also, Himmelsbach's chase helicopter stayed on the west and southwest side of Portland.

The ARINC print outs do not give a route in the Portland area except for that one DME distance.  If a radial had also been listed, then it would have been a point and that would have given a good location.  Keep in mind that the 23 DME number would probably show on the instrument for about 20-30 seconds since the airliner was not flying directly to or from the Portland VORTAC.  In addition the time of 8:18 could be anywhere from 8:18:00 to 8:18:59 PM.  So this point is not as accurately defined as you might think.
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #781 on: October 25, 2015, 10:59:37 PM »
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Ok, is it possible these guys calculated part of the flight path in a straight line? when I fly the two area's with twist turns in them I get a different time than the map shows. could they of been listening to the radio and plotting the course that way? if the radio in stating 23 miles DME from BTG, would they draw a straight line and calculate from that?

I just flew a straight line from BTG down to 23 miles DME and got a time of 8:20. this is minutes and not the 8:22 on the transcripts. that's the actual time stamp. when I do the twisty turns I can't reach 23 DME in 8 minutes.

Remember that there is nothing to confirm that the airliner ever overflew the Portland VORTAC.  See the previous post for more on what that 23 DME distance means in this instance.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #782 on: October 25, 2015, 11:20:20 PM »
Quote
On the "FBI Map" that Shutter has been using, there are several red cross marks near the Canby Intersection that can be aligned to show that they are on a straight line between the Malay and Canby Intersections.  These lines were apparently drawn by the FAA controller as he vectored the chase aircraft to the airliner.

The high resolution map I have the red crosses can be seen all the way up & down the path...

There is also a faded cross just below the Malay intersection...
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 11:41:07 PM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #783 on: October 26, 2015, 12:21:51 AM »
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From a [very early] post by R99:

Quote
Remember that if the airliner was bypassing Portland on the west side, as suggested by some of the maps and book narratives, it would basically fly over the Columbia River for several miles and would not be further west than the west side of the river as it passed Tina Bar.

Both Himmelsbach's and Tosaw's books state that the chase aircraft in the Portland area were vectored to the airliner on the west and southwest side of Portland.  Also, Himmelsbach's chase helicopter stayed on the west and southwest side of Portland.

And who with what information, sent them there?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 12:22:18 AM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #784 on: October 26, 2015, 12:39:19 AM »
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From a [very early] post by R99:

Quote
Remember that if the airliner was bypassing Portland on the west side, as suggested by some of the maps and book narratives, it would basically fly over the Columbia River for several miles and would not be further west than the west side of the river as it passed Tina Bar.

Both Himmelsbach's and Tosaw's books state that the chase aircraft in the Portland area were vectored to the airliner on the west and southwest side of Portland.  Also, Himmelsbach's chase helicopter stayed on the west and southwest side of Portland.

And who with what information, sent them there?

The Seattle ATC Controller who was working the aircraft on the radios and watching them on his radar set.
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #785 on: October 26, 2015, 12:45:55 AM »
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Quote
On the "FBI Map" that Shutter has been using, there are several red cross marks near the Canby Intersection that can be aligned to show that they are on a straight line between the Malay and Canby Intersections.  These lines were apparently drawn by the FAA controller as he vectored the chase aircraft to the airliner.

The high resolution map I have the red crosses can be seen all the way up & down the path...

There is also a faded cross just below the Malay intersection...

There are several small crosses along the ploted route, but I am referring specifically to the "stand alone" crosses that are about 8 miles west of the Portland Airport and then south of that area.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #786 on: October 26, 2015, 12:59:22 AM »
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If the airliner took off from SEATAC at exactly 7:36:30 PM and arrived at the Malay Intersection at exactly 7:59:00 PM, it would have covered a distance of 64.0 nautical miles in exactly 22:30 minutes:seconds at an average ground speed of 2.84 miles per minute (about 171 knots).  That is despite having about a 20 knot headwind component.

The airliner reported that it was leveling at 10,000 feet at 7:53:54 PM but did not give its location at that time.  That is 17:24 minutes:seconds after takeoff and 5:06 minutes:seconds before arriving at the Malay Intersection.  After leveling off, the airliner's ground speed would have been about 3 nautical miles per minute and from that, it can be estimated that the airliner was about 15 nautical miles north of the Malay Intersecton when it reached 10,000 feet.


I moved this from the Tina Bar thread....

The 7:59 plot is as the plane is turning at Toledo (KTDO) then 8:00 it had already passed the Malay intersection. I believe it's 61 nm to KTDO. we have speeds from 160, even lower according to George Harrison papers. then it goes to 170. also have a flap change in this leg. with a steady speed of 170, or 3 nm it would take a little over 20 minutes of flight to KTDO, but since we have speed changes, the timing drags.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #787 on: October 26, 2015, 01:00:59 AM »
Quote
There are several small crosses along the ploted route, but I am referring specifically to the "stand alone" crosses that are about 8 miles west of the Portland Airport and then south of that area.

I'm familiar with those crosses. I often wondered if they were on the wrong side of V-23. they line up when you reverse the path.

The path goes right around Portland and Vancouver....
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 01:08:30 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #788 on: October 26, 2015, 07:29:17 PM »
To date, we have the following problems with the known flight path.

1) Plane takes off at 7:36
2) Reports 14 miles DME 7:40
3) Reports 19 miles DME 7:43

The plane fly's 14 miles in 4 minutes, and then 5 miles in 3 minutes?

Caution this area is still in the testing stages...

Lake Merwin Area
1) At the 8:10 to 8:17 area the timing is off.
2) The gaps are larger than 3 miles between the plots in this area.
3) According to the map the plane fly's 7 minutes.
4) After flying the simulator multiple times the times ranges from 8:20 - 8:35 minutes flight time, and not the 7 minutes the map shows.

23 miles DME

This time can not be made.

At this present time, I don't see any issue's with the Malay intersection. the plane simply fly's past this, and doesn't have much to do with the known flight path. it does have greater concern with what R99 is presently working on with a possible route taken that evening. it's plausible, and makes sense, but needs more backing. lets not confuse the two...

« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 08:31:02 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #789 on: October 27, 2015, 10:52:32 AM »
I'm going to run a series of tests today in the problem area. the area in question is after passing Battleground. it's mapped like the plane stopped, put it's blinker on, and then turned.  :D

I've said in the past it's almost like they were trying to shake Cooper up with all the twisty turns going on. I don't see a valid reason for such moves? why not fly straight down like the rest of the map...
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #790 on: October 27, 2015, 01:33:04 PM »
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I'm going to run a series of tests today in the problem area. the area in question is after passing Battleground. it's mapped like the plane stopped, put it's blinker on, and then turned.  :D

I've said in the past it's almost like they were trying to shake Cooper up with all the twisty turns going on. I don't see a valid reason for such moves? why not fly straight down like the rest of the map...

To determine the actual flight path using radar plots and times, the Seattle ATC people would be the only ones with the necessary information.  Both the radar and radio tapes were automatically recorded by the Seattle ATC and that information was available to the FBI even if they didn't get or ask for all of it.

But it is highly unlikely that the flight paths shown on the various maps are of the hijacked airliner.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #791 on: October 27, 2015, 01:44:52 PM »
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I'm going to run a series of tests today in the problem area. the area in question is after passing Battleground. it's mapped like the plane stopped, put it's blinker on, and then turned.  :D

I've said in the past it's almost like they were trying to shake Cooper up with all the twisty turns going on. I don't see a valid reason for such moves? why not fly straight down like the rest of the map...

To determine the actual flight path using radar plots and times, the Seattle ATC people would be the only ones with the necessary information.  Both the radar and radio tapes were automatically recorded by the Seattle ATC and that information was available to the FBI even if they didn't get or ask for all of it.

But it is highly unlikely that the flight paths shown on the various maps are of the hijacked airliner.


For some reason they fail to indicate anything about ATC involvement in making the path in the document below?
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #792 on: October 27, 2015, 02:10:40 PM »
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I'm going to run a series of tests today in the problem area. the area in question is after passing Battleground. it's mapped like the plane stopped, put it's blinker on, and then turned.  :D

I've said in the past it's almost like they were trying to shake Cooper up with all the twisty turns going on. I don't see a valid reason for such moves? why not fly straight down like the rest of the map...

To determine the actual flight path using radar plots and times, the Seattle ATC people would be the only ones with the necessary information.  Both the radar and radio tapes were automatically recorded by the Seattle ATC and that information was available to the FBI even if they didn't get or ask for all of it.

But it is highly unlikely that the flight paths shown on the various maps are of the hijacked airliner.


For some reason they fail to indicate anything about ATC involvement in making the path in the document below?

True.

Also, note that NWA "experts" seem to be involved in everything from the parachute landing area estimate to the meteorological information.  And the radar information used appears to come from the USAF.

The FAA, Seattle ATC, and National Weather Service seem to have been frozen out of some aspects of the Cooper investigation.  Those are the real people that the FBI should have been talking to.

It is probable that the Seattle ATC and the USAF at McChord AFB were using the same radar set for air traffic control purposes.  No weapons system radar type information would have been of any particular use in this matter.

Perhaps the statement that the radar information came from a USAF Captain at McChord AFB only means that he was the one who handed the information to the FBI agent.

 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #793 on: October 27, 2015, 02:36:38 PM »
It appears they relied more on the military to tell them where the plane was. Carr stated he couldn't find any records, tapes of any kind, and also stated that he wasn't sure they ever had any of this info. once again, we are left with bits and pieces of what really occurred in making these assumptions of where he jumped, and where the plane was?

It appears that the map is the only surviving piece of evidence to go by. the flight data is missing, as well as any tapes, or records of how the map was constructed. I have a feeling that most of this is buried somewhere, similar to the handling of the Alcatraz escape.
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #794 on: October 27, 2015, 03:20:30 PM »
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It appears they relied more on the military to tell them where the plane was. Carr stated he couldn't find any records, tapes of any kind, and also stated that he wasn't sure they ever had any of this info. once again, we are left with bits and pieces of what really occurred in making these assumptions of where he jumped, and where the plane was?

It appears that the map is the only surviving piece of evidence to go by. the flight data is missing, as well as any tapes, or records of how the map was constructed. I have a feeling that most of this is buried somewhere, similar to the handling of the Alcatraz escape.

Remember that FOIA requests are only applicable for certain types of information.  If you want to keep certain information out of sight, all you need to do is make sure it never gets into a file that can be accessed by an FOIA search. 

And if keeping a file without out a number in a file cabinet that no one has a record of is not an option, then there will probably be an operative paper shredder nearby.