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Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 1102887 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #765 on: October 23, 2015, 08:16:23 PM »
I haven't received any emails from Jo in a long time now....
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #766 on: October 23, 2015, 09:37:10 PM »
Looking at a high resolution map of the flight path I noticed the plane doesn't fly directly over Battleground. it's east of BTG. it doesn't change much, but you don't see this on the other maps..
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Offline EVickiW

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #767 on: October 23, 2015, 10:07:25 PM »
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I haven't received any emails from Jo in a long time now....

Would you like me to forward the last one I received from Jo?   ;)
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #768 on: October 23, 2015, 10:08:59 PM »
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I haven't received any emails from Jo in a long time now....

Would you like me to forward the last one I received from Jo?   ;)


 :P no thanks, I'm sure I'll get one now anyway  ;D ;D ;D
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Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #769 on: October 23, 2015, 11:21:32 PM »
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I haven't received any emails from Jo in a long time now....

Would you like me to forward the last one I received from Jo?   ;)


 :P no thanks, I'm sure I'll get one now anyway  ;D ;D ;D

If you actually gave Jo your personal e-mail address, then both of you deserve the consequences.  ;D
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Offline andrade1812

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #770 on: October 24, 2015, 04:00:39 AM »
Working through some problems relating to the jump, what evidence do we have that the oscillations and the pressure bump were distinct events? Is there actual flight data on this, or is there only the cockpit crew testimony?
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Offline EVickiW

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #771 on: October 24, 2015, 08:35:20 AM »
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I haven't received any emails from Jo in a long time now....

Would you like me to forward the last one I received from Jo?   ;)


 :P no thanks, I'm sure I'll get one now anyway  ;D ;D ;D

If you actually gave Jo your personal e-mail address, then both of you deserve the consequences.  ;D

The "consequences" turned out to be good for me. She sends a out mass mailings without blind recipients.  ;D
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #772 on: October 24, 2015, 04:31:55 PM »
A few years ago, Galen told me that when he last spoke with Larry Carr, Ckret believed that the exit point was much further south than originally thought. Galen said that Larry said "Orchards." That's the only reference I have to that location.
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #773 on: October 24, 2015, 04:34:18 PM »
Jo Weber?  Did I miss the party?

Mrs. Cooper left a message on my phone last night, saying that she wanted to know "what was happening," and that her computer wasn't working. It appears others have filled the gap that Jo was asking of me. Thanks to all!!!
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #774 on: October 24, 2015, 04:44:10 PM »
Quote
Working through some problems relating to the jump, what evidence do we have that the oscillations and the pressure bump were distinct events? Is there actual flight data on this, or is there only the cockpit crew testimony?


The oscillation is noted in the transcripts, but this was when Cooper was on the stairs. the pressure bump was when the stairs came back up after Cooper jumped. this would be similar to slamming the door in a closed room and the curtains jump. theis is not noted in the transcripts, but was recreated during the testing by dropping sandbags. the flight data recorder would have picked this up, but it appears that this evidence is also lost.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2015, 06:12:28 PM by Shutter »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #775 on: October 24, 2015, 09:48:01 PM »
I mapped the nautical miles between the Lewis river, and the Columbia river. the map shows 7 minutes to complete this leg of the path. my simulator is coming in at 8 minutes plus, and increasing as I get closer to the path.

From the Lewis river to the 8:12 location is approx. 6.022 NM
8:12 to 8:13 location is approx. 3.597 NM
8:13 to 8:14 location is approx. 3.151 NM
8:14 to 8:15 location is approx. 4.357 MN
8:15 to 8:16 location is approx. 3.534 NM
8:16 to 8:17 location is approx. 3.838 NM

This gives a total of 24.499 nautical miles explaining why it's taking me so long to get through this area...
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Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #776 on: October 25, 2015, 02:28:28 AM »
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I mapped the nautical miles between the Lewis river, and the Columbia river. the map shows 7 minutes to complete this leg of the path. my simulator is coming in at 8 minutes plus, and increasing as I get closer to the path.

From the Lewis river to the 8:12 location is approx. 6.022 NM
8:12 to 8:13 location is approx. 3.597 NM
8:13 to 8:14 location is approx. 3.151 NM
8:14 to 8:15 location is approx. 4.357 MN
8:15 to 8:16 location is approx. 3.534 NM
8:16 to 8:17 location is approx. 3.838 NM

This gives a total of 24.499 nautical miles explaining why it's taking me so long to get through this area...

You are just pointing out the fact that those times and distances are not accurate.  From what I remember of the map and times, things are worse than you show above.

The aircraft actually had a ground speed (which is what is of interest here) of about 3.0 NM per minute.  The original map indicates that the airliner, which was flying at constant speed, travelled 3.0 NM in one minute and then 6.0 NM in the very next minute.  That is not possible while flying at a constant speed.

You show ground speeds varying from 3.151 to 4.357 NM per minute.  Those numbers won't work either.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #777 on: October 25, 2015, 08:15:20 AM »
Quote
From the Lewis river to the 8:12 location is approx. 6.022 NM
8:12 to 8:13 location is approx. 3.597 NM
8:13 to 8:14 location is approx. 3.151 NM
8:14 to 8:15 location is approx. 4.357 MN
8:15 to 8:16 location is approx. 3.534 NM
8:16 to 8:17 location is approx. 3.838 NM


These are plotted numbers. I mapped them out checking the distance between the minute marks on the map. the distance between other points on the map before reaching the Lewis river are easy to plot since they are in a straight line from Malay to the Lewis river as an example, or from Ksea to Ed Carlson field (KTDO).

The main problem I'm having is at the 8:15 mark. once you pass this point you need to turn and continue approx. 3.5 NM and turn again heading for the Pearson field area. the plane doesn't turn on a dime, so it's hard to follow this part of the course.

The timing in this area exceeds 7 minutes. this puts the map in question with this area. the numbers above are not flight related, only plots from a map to check the distance.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 09:03:39 AM by Shutter »
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Offline andrade1812

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #778 on: October 25, 2015, 07:36:37 PM »
From a [very early] post by R99:

Quote
Remember that if the airliner was bypassing Portland on the west side, as suggested by some of the maps and book narratives, it would basically fly over the Columbia River for several miles and would not be further west than the west side of the river as it passed Tina Bar.

What maps? what narratives? Are the ARINC printouts the only evidence for the western route?

Quote
The direct route from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection passes almost directly (within a few hundred feet) overhead of Tina Bar.  The distance from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection is 67.0 nautical miles.

According to a note in the "FBI files" that are online and a copy of the ARINC teletypewriter print outs, the airliner reported at 8:22 PM PST that it was 23 DME miles south of the Portland (now Battleground) VORTAC.  However, an individual from NWA gives the time of arrival of that voice message as 8:18 PM PST in Seattle which was phone-patched into the ARINC radio communications.

On the direct route from the Malay to Canby Intersections, this corresponds to a point that is 19 nautical miles south of Tina Bar.  If the airliner had a ground speed of exactly 3.0 nautical miles per minute, this would put the airliner 6:20 (minutes:seconds) south of Tina Bar.  This means that the airliner passed overhead of Tina bar at about 8:11:40 PM PST.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 08:32:41 PM by andrade1812 »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #779 on: October 25, 2015, 10:23:25 PM »
Ok, is it possible these guys calculated part of the flight path in a straight line? when I fly the two area's with twist turns in them I get a different time than the map shows. could they of been listening to the radio and plotting the course that way? if the radio in stating 23 miles DME from BTG, would they draw a straight line and calculate from that?

I just flew a straight line from BTG down to 23 miles DME and got a time of 8:20. this is minutes and not the 8:22 on the transcripts. that's the actual time stamp. when I do the twisty turns I can't reach 23 DME in 8 minutes.
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