Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 916567 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #570 on: February 28, 2015, 05:45:05 PM »
I'm currently working on the dropzone area, or from Merwin to Portland. I'm getting a time of 6:42 seconds which is about the time stated on the map.

170 KIAS
195 +- KTGS
Temp 42 Degree's
TAT Reading -8 (Celsius not Fahrenheit)
Fuel Flow 4500-4800
Flaps 15 Degree's
Gear down
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 06:09:30 PM by shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #571 on: February 28, 2015, 06:18:27 PM »
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The foil type recorder has 400 hours of data. the wire recorder only has 4 hours, and then it overwrites the previous data.

According to the FBI's own statements, they didn't know exactly where he jumped. this is what's confusing since they had the data. you read the Air Force did the calculation, and then you have NWO stating they made the calculations. then I hear an undercover agent claim they had no idea where he jumped, and when you have that, you end up with a large search area.

They seem to be basing a lot on the radio transcripts. that's the main focus of a much larger search area.

Then to top it all off, we have Ralph, JT, Dawson, and others stating another route all together........


END MESSAGE....Head Spinning  :o

I think you are correct: foil type 400 hrs. Wire type 4hrs. That agrees with a Carr post which refers to 4hrs of recording time. Now, did the FDR record cabin pressure or not. Wally says it did. ???

Given the former discussion at DZ I don't think anyone thought the FDR recorded cabin pressure. ?

But, Wally sounds confident they thought they had Cooper's jump point nailed. Kaye is equally confident the FBI path and drop point are correct.


 


   
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 06:20:12 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #572 on: February 28, 2015, 06:24:58 PM »
Quote
Given the former discussion at DZ I don't think anyone thought the FDR recorded cabin pressure. ?

See attached photo.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #573 on: February 28, 2015, 09:18:42 PM »
This is from "Reflections Newsletter" with Rataczak.


His instructions: Cruise at ten thousand feet. Gear
down. Flaps 15 degrees. About 24 minutes out, 28
miles north of Portland, the second officer’s
annunciator panel indicated that the rear stairs had
been lowered.
The crew did not know for sure that
their hijacker had jumped until they landed in Reno.

24 minutes out, 28 miles north of Portland?

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georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #574 on: February 28, 2015, 11:41:39 PM »
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Quote
Given the former discussion at DZ I don't think anyone thought the FDR recorded cabin pressure. ?

See attached photo.

Wunderbar! where in hell did you get that!??? I guess that issue is settled? If this applies to the FDR on board 305 then Wally knows exactly what he's talking about, or reporting. There is no reason why Wally would make stuff up. The only issue with Wally would be his memory ... good find, sir!
 
   
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 11:44:43 PM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #575 on: February 28, 2015, 11:51:40 PM »
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Quote
Given the former discussion at DZ I don't think anyone thought the FDR recorded cabin pressure. ?

See attached photo.

Wunderbar! where in hell did you get that!??? I guess that issue is settled?
 

With the unpressurized cabin and the aft stairs popped, the cabin pressure will be "basically" the same as the ambient pressure which is shown on the altimeter as feet.  And either the altimeter reading or the static pressure from the pitot tube that is hooked to the altimeter will be recorded.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #576 on: February 28, 2015, 11:58:20 PM »
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This is from "Reflections Newsletter" with Rataczak.


His instructions: Cruise at ten thousand feet. Gear
down. Flaps 15 degrees. About 24 minutes out, 28
miles north of Portland, the second officer’s
annunciator panel indicated that the rear stairs had
been lowered.
The crew did not know for sure that
their hijacker had jumped until they landed in Reno.

24 minutes out, 28 miles north of Portland?

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No mention of oscillations or bump or last communications with Cooper ~8:05. 
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #577 on: March 01, 2015, 12:03:37 AM »
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This is from "Reflections Newsletter" with Rataczak.


His instructions: Cruise at ten thousand feet. Gear
down. Flaps 15 degrees. About 24 minutes out, 28
miles north of Portland, the second officer’s
annunciator panel indicated that the rear stairs had
been lowered.
The crew did not know for sure that
their hijacker had jumped until they landed in Reno.

24 minutes out, 28 miles north of Portland?

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No mention of oscillations or bump or last communications with Cooper ~8:05.

Note that the 24 minutes and 28 miles from Portland don't agree.  You could drive down I-5 faster than that, which is only about 65 MPH (which would be ground speed).  I suggest that one or both of those numbers is incorrect.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #578 on: March 01, 2015, 12:12:53 AM »
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This is from "Reflections Newsletter" with Rataczak.


His instructions: Cruise at ten thousand feet. Gear
down. Flaps 15 degrees. About 24 minutes out, 28
miles north of Portland, the second officer’s
annunciator panel indicated that the rear stairs had
been lowered.
The crew did not know for sure that
their hijacker had jumped until they landed in Reno.

24 minutes out, 28 miles north of Portland?

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

No mention of oscillations or bump or last communications with Cooper ~8:05.

Note that the 24 minutes and 28 miles from Portland don't agree.  You could drive down I-5 faster than that, which is only about 65 MPH (which would be ground speed).  I suggest that one or both of those numbers is incorrect.

You read my mind!

There are public presentations my friends at Rockwell refer to as  "toilet paper presentations" - you could wipe your XXX with them. Surely in that NWA audience there were people wondering ???? What more can you say? You smile and shake hands and go home and have a few stiff drinks... you try to pick the pieces up the next day without offending anyone! and you pray the donation checks don't stop!!!

R99 what do you think of Wally's remarks?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 12:19:58 AM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #579 on: March 01, 2015, 01:19:19 AM »
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This is from "Reflections Newsletter" with Rataczak.


His instructions: Cruise at ten thousand feet. Gear
down. Flaps 15 degrees. About 24 minutes out, 28
miles north of Portland, the second officer’s
annunciator panel indicated that the rear stairs had
been lowered.
The crew did not know for sure that
their hijacker had jumped until they landed in Reno.

24 minutes out, 28 miles north of Portland?

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

No mention of oscillations or bump or last communications with Cooper ~8:05.

Note that the 24 minutes and 28 miles from Portland don't agree.  You could drive down I-5 faster than that, which is only about 65 MPH (which would be ground speed).  I suggest that one or both of those numbers is incorrect.

You read my mind!

There are public presentations my friends at Rockwell refer to as  "toilet paper presentations" - you could wipe your XXX with them. Surely in that NWA audience there were people wondering ???? What more can you say? You smile and shake hands and go home and have a few stiff drinks... you try to pick the pieces up the next day without offending anyone! and you pray the donation checks don't stop!!!

R99 what do you think of Wally's remarks?

First, just who is Wally?  I don't see any identification for him.  As far as the jump time goes, Soderlind insisted to Tosaw that it was 8:13 PM.  And frankly, that time seems to be very accurate (to within a minute or so).  However, Soderlind was plotting the first jump zone within a few minutes of that time and there is no indication of where he got the position information that he was using.  And he had the jump zone finished long before the airliner even got to Reno.  So Soderlind could not have used FDR data.

Soderlind probably got the information he used through the phone patch and teletype messages that were sent to MSP through the ARINC network (which is now owned by your friends at Rockwell).  This brings up another problem.  Fred Poynter and his staff at WSHM went through all the messages on that roll of teletype paper that was loaned to WSHM for a short period of time, and concluded that several messages were missing.  That is, either the NWA people or the FBI "redacted" some of those teletype messages.

So when Soderlind drew up his second version of the drop zone, did he have access to the un-redacted Seattle ATC radio transcripts and the missing teletype messages?  There is no conclusive answer to that, but he apparently came to the same conclusions about the 8:13 PM jump time and also that Cooper could have landed in the Columbia River.

But determining the aircraft's location at the jump time is the big problem.  And from what I can see, that information is just not available at the present time.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #580 on: March 01, 2015, 01:41:46 AM »
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This is from "Reflections Newsletter" with Rataczak.


His instructions: Cruise at ten thousand feet. Gear
down. Flaps 15 degrees. About 24 minutes out, 28
miles north of Portland, the second officer’s
annunciator panel indicated that the rear stairs had
been lowered.
The crew did not know for sure that
their hijacker had jumped until they landed in Reno.

24 minutes out, 28 miles north of Portland?

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

No mention of oscillations or bump or last communications with Cooper ~8:05.

Note that the 24 minutes and 28 miles from Portland don't agree.  You could drive down I-5 faster than that, which is only about 65 MPH (which would be ground speed).  I suggest that one or both of those numbers is incorrect.

You read my mind!

There are public presentations my friends at Rockwell refer to as  "toilet paper presentations" - you could wipe your XXX with them. Surely in that NWA audience there were people wondering ???? What more can you say? You smile and shake hands and go home and have a few stiff drinks... you try to pick the pieces up the next day without offending anyone! and you pray the donation checks don't stop!!!

R99 what do you think of Wally's remarks?

First, just who is Wally?  I don't see any identification for him.  As far as the jump time goes, Soderlind insisted to Tosaw that it was 8:13 PM.  And frankly, that time seems to be very accurate (to within a minute or so).  However, Soderlind was plotting the first jump zone within a few minutes of that time and there is no indication of where he got the position information that he was using.  And he had the jump zone finished long before the airliner even got to Reno.  So Soderlind could not have used FDR data.

Soderlind probably got the information he used through the phone patch and teletype messages that were sent to MSP through the ARINC network (which is now owned by your friends at Rockwell).  This brings up another problem.  Fred Poynter and his staff at WSHM went through all the messages on that roll of teletype paper that was loaned to WSHM for a short period of time, and concluded that several messages were missing.  That is, either the NWA people or the FBI "redacted" some of those teletype messages.

So when Soderlind drew up his second version of the drop zone, did he have access to the un-redacted Seattle ATC radio transcripts and the missing teletype messages?  There is no conclusive answer to that, but he apparently came to the same conclusions about the 8:13 PM jump time and also that Cooper could have landed in the Columbia River.

But determining the aircraft's location at the jump time is the big problem.  And from what I can see, that information is just not available at the present time.

Thanks. Wally was an Air Force 'flight examiner/load master' who was n the recreation flight. See attached -

The interview by WSHM.
 
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 01:48:35 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #581 on: March 01, 2015, 08:12:47 AM »
Ralph states this on November 21, 1979

"Listening to the radio communications, recalls how the pilot mentioned during the flight from Seattle he thought Cooper had jumped because of a "low pressure bump" which also registered on the flight recorder at 8:11 PM"

The whole story is here....

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The big question is what happened to the data from the flight recorder?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 08:16:40 AM by shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #582 on: March 01, 2015, 08:34:26 AM »
If Ralph claims to be listening to the radio communications, where is the statement of the "low pressure bump", only the oscillation is recorded on the transcripts that we can see?

These are critical questions I believe that need to be asked with Wally, and Ralph.
 

Offline sailshaw

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #583 on: March 01, 2015, 09:25:11 AM »
Sutter

Could it be that the FDR with only the last 4 hrs of recording and could have rewrote over the information on cabin pressure at the 8:12 time? That could explain why there seems to be no FDR data. The purpose of the FDR is to record the last 4 hours up to the time of the CRASH. We have no crash to turn the recorder off but it probably was turned off after the flight got to Reno and possibly had recorded over the 8:12 time and turned off later than the landing time in Reno.

Bob Sailshaw
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #584 on: March 01, 2015, 11:48:13 AM »
The flight wasn't longer than 4 hours past that point. They did use this data by looking at the report on sluggo's site.....

They might of sent the data to Washington, I don't know.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 04:35:58 PM by shutter »