Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 916547 times)

Offline MarkBennett

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #540 on: February 24, 2015, 09:20:56 PM »
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All I've got are stories, Georger. I collect them, and try to make sense of them.

If an eight year-old girl can provide the FBI with their most promising suspect, then who am I to say that a 14 year-old girl all grown up can't provide a little perspective too, especially when it jives with what Himmelsbach and Rataczak told me.  Yes, they could all be zooming me for whatever reasons, and Himms has a pretty lousy track record for Cooper facts, but it is what it is.

Have there ever been any other hijackings where the airplane was LOST?  That only happens in Hollywood ?  :)

BR's suggested solution of taking Coop out over the ocean seems to imply that Cooper can't see where he's at, isn't asking, isn't looking, etc ? Why would BR think that?   Is this another example of BR "freaking out in the cockpit" ?

Don't forget that there was an overcast at 5000 feet ASL.  Rataczak wanted to climb above that overcast and then go out over the Pacific.  Since Cooper would not have been able to see either the ground or ocean in the middle of the night, he would not have known where the airliner was located.

Yes. Of course if the bomb is real and get detonated then 305 debris is lost .... in the ocean. Better to stay over land, give a few reference points which will bolster the hijacker's sense of security ... and let him bail over a cow lot or .... a BIG RIVER!? When you can't have the ocean maybe a BIG RIVER is close substitute?  ;)   Maybe? 

Full cooperation! Miss nothing! Enable the guy in every way. Lot's of hugs and kisses. Slow the plane, speed up the plane, climb, lower, anything he wants. Deploy the sky hooks and air brakes. Hover! Anything he wants and needs. Tina turns at the curtain and pines: "See ya later Big Guy. I love you Baby!". Cooper replies, "See ya later Babe. I will leave something for you at a place I know called "Tina's Bar". It's a beautiful place on the Columbia not too far from here. Now scoot! I have things to do!". A few last minutes comms: "slow, slow, steady steady.". Swoosh and out he goes. Money left at Tina's Bar ... as promised. Kenny can count on Tina - she will keep his secret - the reluctant gay guy wants to turn his life around and make the most out of his stamp collection. He and Tina can retire together .... near Gresham ... and raise chickens and holly hocks!  It's too late for babies. Life is Harsh. But they will have their memories, and many walks together as the suns set over a thousand shared tears and smiles. Tina stops and thinks: "The psychiatrist predicted this would happen for Kenny and me!" :)     

Interesting...sounds like a TV show...Wait!  That was a TV show!

DB Cooper and Tina retire together was the story of an episode of leverage!

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georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #541 on: February 25, 2015, 01:23:32 AM »
The East path:

A major advocate of an East Path has been Jerry Thomas, who spent years searching areas of the Washougal, at the behest of his mentor SA Ralph Himmelsbach. Himmelsbach is on record as having said in 1976 that he thought DBC jumped somewhere about 12 miles north of Portland, east of V23, based on conversations Ralph had had with co-pilot Bill Rataczak.

In March 2009 'Sluggo' interviewed Ralph Himmelsbach and obtained the following responses, to two key issues:

(a) I then asked him how that chart was produced and who produced it. (referring to the FBI's flight path map on it's webpage) He replied, somewhat bluntly, I just don’t know. He speculated that it was the product of some ARTC engineers and some Northwest Airlines engineers, using radar and flight recorder information. [I got the sense that he had no faith in that document at all.].

(b) He said (without commenting on how he knew this) that as 305 approached PDX they could have been as much as 20 miles East of V-23. I asked for clarification, was he saying statute miles or nautical miles. His response was “statute miles.” I commented about, in light of that statement, Jerry Thomas’s search in and NE of Dougan Falls would not be so far-fetched. He said Jerry was definitely on target.


Note* Himmelsbach's position of Cooper's jump pushes the jump time to the 20:14-16 time-period.

See an attached map. Thanks to Shutter for help in preparing this map...

 
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 01:39:45 AM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #542 on: February 25, 2015, 02:19:31 PM »
The east path solution has the following virtues:

A. It makes the DB Cooper case "go away"!
B. He died. He got his comeuppance!
C. Himmelsbach, Jerry Thomas, and Bill Rataczak are heroes!
D. Cooper Royalty 377, Airtwardo, Tom Kaye, and   RobertMBlevins will come on board to get their share of rewards.
E. The money at Tina's Bar is explained.
F. DB Cooper was the unnamed child of Marilyn Monroe and JFK, raised by the Christiansen and Weber family!@
G. Jo Weber and RobertMBlevins now both go away!
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 02:23:48 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #543 on: February 25, 2015, 05:35:01 PM »
The part I don't follow is how, and where did they leave V23 to get that far east?

 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #544 on: February 25, 2015, 05:42:31 PM »
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The part I don't follow is how, and where did they leave V23 to get that far east?

Precisely! I dont know. I have asked and asked and asked ... all JT would ever say is: "its a secret". He claims Ralph has the info based on extensive work with Rataczak, he says. He says he has "seen" the radar tapes and knows where they are being stored (out east at a military base). When I asked "what do you mean by 'seen' the radar tapes _ do you mean the radar data?"... all he would say is: "Yes, the data. It's a secret. Trust me. It exists and Ralph has seen the data."

That is all I know. I am nothing more than a spectator in this whole thing.
 
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 05:50:41 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #545 on: February 25, 2015, 05:55:59 PM »
What type of radar data? from the ATC I would guess. it couldn't be from the air force. that would be sage data. sage is history.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #546 on: February 25, 2015, 05:57:35 PM »
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What type of radar data? from the ATC I would guess. it couldn't be from the air force. that would be sage data. sage is history.

The original tapes and some kind of paper printout, according to JT. He said included data from the Air Force - that, he said, is why it is being kept at a military base. 
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 06:00:26 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #547 on: February 25, 2015, 06:00:11 PM »
I don't know anything about the functions of the ATC. perhaps R99 can shed some light on this. Carr was asked about tapes, he claimed that he found nothing, but that was the air force reference though....
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #548 on: February 25, 2015, 06:01:28 PM »
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I don't know anything about the functions of the ATC. perhaps R99 can shed some light on this. Carr was asked about tapes, he claimed that he found nothing, but that was the air force reference though....

Again, some of the data is Air Force data. That is the reason, JT says, it is being kept at a military facility. And I dont know what "tapes" he's talking about. Air Force tapes? ATC tapes? Just "the radar tapes". But he says there is a printout which shows radar positions and times.

I could be wrong but I think this issue of the "tapes" and Air Force radar data is what Sluggo wanted to talk to Himmslesbach about next ... but I guess that never happened. ???
 
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 06:05:50 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #549 on: February 25, 2015, 06:05:50 PM »
Sage was recorded on tapes, magnetic tapes, and cores. I guess they could still have ways to read them. why the secret though? what purpose does this serve?
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #550 on: February 25, 2015, 06:07:03 PM »
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Sage was recorded on tapes, magnetic tapes, and cores. I guess they could still have ways to read them. why the secret though? what purpose does this serve?

You will have to talk to JT. I have said everything I know and fact is I dont know (in specifics) what JT is talking about.
I could not even get out of him what "tapes" meant!
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #551 on: February 25, 2015, 06:08:05 PM »
Is Ralph talking to anybody now?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #552 on: February 25, 2015, 06:16:31 PM »
In this video you will see what JT is talking about...


« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 06:17:16 PM by shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #553 on: February 25, 2015, 06:17:11 PM »
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Is Ralph talking to anybody now?

I have no idea. What I do know is the T33 intercept near Oswego in the general time slot assigned to that, is real. And how you get from there back to being anywhere near Dougan Falls at supposedly 8:14-16 ... is beyond me. I also know everyone associated with the Troutdale Airport says 305 NEVER cross over there! And they say that with near outrage anyone would even suggest it! One official asked me point blank: "Who is this SOB that is saying 305 crossed here!?" I gave them Thomas' name.

I intentionally did not mention Himmelsbach because I have nothing to indicate H ever said 305 crossed at Troutdale.
But, I did give them Thomas' name because he has been the one saying it. They said they had never heard of 'Jerry Thomas'. They also said they were going to make inquiries and I then did give them Himmelsbach's name. The former airport manager said he remembered hearing that name ...
 
   
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 06:23:51 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #554 on: February 25, 2015, 08:19:38 PM »
I would still like to hear what Ralph has to say about the path.