Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 916503 times)

Offline hom

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #450 on: December 24, 2014, 08:29:41 PM »
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I don't know.  This was among the reports and forecasts agent Carr brought to DZ.  Wasn't a real METAR like I showed it.  I typed the METAR to facilitate input to a weather generator for a flight simulator.  I can check on what other locations were in the printout if you like.  That might give a clue.  Maybe possibility of people getting out to search?  There is no explanation of anything on the printout.

I'll keep your offer in mind but at present I don't know what it would be used for.  Remember that the airliner was south of Portland by about 8:18PM PST, then there was the regular 9:00PM PST hourly sequence report, and then the special one at 9:17PM PST.  Special reports are normally only made in the event of such things as an aircraft accident or something of that magnitude.

Because of the times being after what we were interested in, I had never paid much attention to this particular report amongst those Carr posted.  There is a handwritten "Terminal Forecast" at the top.  There is no header on the top of the listing.  The content appears very slightly similar to current Terminal Area Forecasts.  The entries are "one liners" for each airport.  Each airport entry appears to be a brief statement of current condition followed by forecast, but there is no clue as to the time for which the forecast would apply.  The stations in the listing are: 

Astoria, Redmond, PDX, Troutdale?, Baker, Salem, North Bend (OR), Medford, Klamath Falls, and three I can't make out.
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #451 on: January 14, 2015, 10:55:47 PM »
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The description of a cloud layer applies only to that single cloud layer.  The description of an overcast applies only to the single cloud layer that is described as an overcast and has nothing to do with any cloud layers that are below it or above it.  An "overcast" itself would cover from 90 percent of the sky to 100 percent of the sky.  Any cloud layers below the "overcast" would further obscure vision.

Following is from Section 2 of Aviation Weather Services Advisory Circular AC 00-45G, Change 1, published jointly by the National Weather Service and the FAA (emphasis added to make it clear enough for you):

"When more than one layer is reported, layers are in ascending order of height. For each layer above a lower layer or layers, the sky cover designator for that layer will be the total sky cover which includes that layer and all lower layers. In other words, the summation concept of cloud layers is used.

 "Transparent" sky cover is clouds or obscuring phenomena aloft through which blue sky or higher sky cover is visible. As explained in Table 2-1, a scattered, broken, or overcast layer may be reported as "thin." To be classified as thin, a layer must be half or more transparent.  Remember that sky cover of a layer includes all sky cover reported below that layer."

This is from a pretty current document, but the same was true in 1971.  (But, what would the weather service or FAA know about it?)

Hominid,

Reference is also made to your previous posts, and replies to them, on weather reporting.

Section 2, Aviation Weather Services Advisory Circular, AC 00-45G, Change 1, published July 29, 2010, is a three page section titled: Aviation Product Classification and Policy, and does NOT contain what you have quoted above.

The METAR format for weather reporting was NOT adopted in North America, which includes the United States of America, until June 1, 1996.  Consequently, it has nothing to do with the weather reports from November 1971 or the Cooper hijacking period.

You joined the DZ Cooper thread on September 27, 2011 and on that same day I downloaded and printed out a programmed text (Teletype Sequence Reports AM-33), January 1970, from the US Army Primary Helicopter School, Fort Wolters, Texas.  You and I exchanged a number of PMs in January and February, 2012 on DZ discussing this very report, which you should also have a copy of, and it says NOTHING about "cumulative" cloud cover.

And if my memory is correct, neither you nor I found any other documentation on weather reporting that was in effect on November 24, 1971.

So, how about citing chapter and verse for your claims about "cumulative" cloud reporting being valid on the date of the hijacking.

Robert99 
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #452 on: January 14, 2015, 11:39:54 PM »
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I think you have to keep in mind that Cooper doesn't have the flight plan, it's just a direction (Mexico City,) maybe he's done the flight before, that's a maybe, he agrees to Reno, doesn't seem to care that much *meh* same-ish direction, he wants to get out the aircraft, aft stair issues, his plan is general/simple, he rolls the dice (everyone argues the difficulty of the jump but it's easy when you have no choice) and bails, BUT when he hits the broken cloud layer then he could see a general idea of the river, highway, dam, whatever.

Professor Moriarty, please keep in mind that Cooper jumped at night through multiple cloud layers and it is very difficult to determine landmarks when you are tumbling head over heels, as Cooper was probably doing, even in the daytime under such conditions.

funny   :) :) :)
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #453 on: January 15, 2015, 12:48:36 PM »
I just installed what is called "HD mesh" on my simulator. it is more accurate data with the ground textures, or objects. it now shows a detailed map of the Portland area. all the rivers and lakes are now visible that weren't there originally. the downfall is all my airports disappeared. I either have to re-install them, or find out what went wrong. I'll make a video flying over the tip pf Hayden island. you will clearly see Smith lake.

If we are to try and use this option. we need to move the flight path. we must show reasons for this move. it will cause a domino effect with the path. you can't just move it in one area to fit the need.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #454 on: January 15, 2015, 01:01:23 PM »
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I just installed what is called "HD mesh" on my simulator. it is more accurate data with the ground textures, or objects. it now shows a detailed map of the Portland area. all the rivers and lakes are now visible that weren't there originally. the downfall is all my airports disappeared. I either have to re-install them, or find out what went wrong. I'll make a video flying over the tip pf Hayden island. you will clearly see Smith lake.

If we are to try and use this option. we need to move the flight path. we must show reasons for this move. it will cause a domino effect with the path. you can't just move it in one area to fit the need.

check Force Lake and the large gated off swampy marsh East of it next to I5,, should be reachable without altering path
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #455 on: January 15, 2015, 01:14:11 PM »
will do.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #456 on: January 15, 2015, 01:15:37 PM »
Here is one I made yesterday. it's before the upgrade. Smith lake is not on my textures though....

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #457 on: January 15, 2015, 01:18:18 PM »
Here is Cooper's point of view, again Smith lake not visible on this texture...

« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 01:18:51 PM by shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #458 on: January 15, 2015, 01:33:07 PM »
The new video is currently uploading to You Tube. It's not the best. I don't have my movie software on this computer. I'm using Microsoft movie maker....


It's ready...faster than expected  :o

« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 01:34:33 PM by shutter »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #459 on: January 15, 2015, 01:35:04 PM »
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Here is Cooper's point of view, again Smith lake not visible on this texture...



That looks like Force Lake in your vid,, the swamp area is just East of it about 5x larger,, the flight path may have been slightly closer to I5 and still hit the waypoint coordinates as in the FBI map, Smith Lake seems too far in a no pull without really moving the flightpath


Force Lake in blue,, swamp.Marsh in red

swamp/marsh today..

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« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 01:44:44 PM by FLYJACK »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #460 on: January 15, 2015, 01:51:10 PM »
Have you used Google distance maps? it's pretty accurate. Force lake is small....
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #461 on: January 15, 2015, 02:03:13 PM »
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Have you used Google distance maps? it's pretty accurate. Force lake is small....

yes, it is small, 5-600 ft wide, the swamp east of it is quite large today, 1500-2000ft across,, IDK about the 70s..

the flight path on the FBI map looks to be virtually touching I5, the green dot is the swamp area,, 

Anybody know what the x's in red pen mean on the map marked here in blue

Vanport Wetlands habitat area closed off no trespass

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« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 02:17:43 PM by FLYJACK »
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #462 on: January 15, 2015, 03:07:59 PM »
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Have you used Google distance maps? it's pretty accurate. Force lake is small....

yes, it is small, 5-600 ft wide, the swamp east of it is quite large today, 1500-2000ft across,, IDK about the 70s..

the flight path on the FBI map looks to be virtually touching I5, the green dot is the swamp area,, 

Anybody know what the x's in red pen mean on the map marked here in blue

Vanport Wetlands habitat area closed off no trespass

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There are actually four of those red x marks.  The fourth one is a bit to the left of the bottom end of the green arrow.  If you draw a straight line through the left most ones and another straight line through the right most ones, and extending them to the north, those two straight lines will connect with the Malay Intersection on V23 near Toledo.  And extending them to the south will result in their connecting with V-23 again near the Canby Intersection.

When the airliner was in the Portland area, the Seattle ATC controllers were involved in efforts to vector several different military aircraft to the airliner.  All of those vector attempts were on the west and southwest sides of Portland.  Consequently, these four red x marks were probably put there by the ATC controllers to pinpoint the airliner and chase aircraft locations during the attempts to vector them together.   
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #463 on: January 15, 2015, 03:27:39 PM »
In the same respect one could speculate a few things. how much radar data did they really rely on? now,according to one report Captain Scott had to re-configure the path. he claims they flew over the Woodland area. if you move the path the same distance on the other side of V-23 the plane is further away from Portland, and lines up with the red x's?  the plane is also closer to the Woodland area? it's just a thought....
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 03:28:35 PM by shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #464 on: January 17, 2015, 05:36:19 PM »
I posted a news report stating Scott had to re-configure the flight path. why would this be needed if they relied on radar? how much did they really know about the path?