Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 996136 times)

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4425 on: October 12, 2021, 11:07:40 PM »
Yes, Bob. I know all of that. I’m asking you is how the DME information points to Cooper jumping at 8:11. Those are two totally unrelated pieces of data.
“Completely unhinged”
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4426 on: October 12, 2021, 11:08:51 PM »
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Chaucer, have you done what I recommend above?  If you don't understand what I was saying above, please let me know and give me some idea about your level of understanding related to mathematics, navigation, etc., so that I can speak to your level.

well, speaking for myself, I know that 2 + 2 = 5 for large values of 2.
So you can start with that understanding.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4427 on: October 12, 2021, 11:20:32 PM »
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Chaucer, have you done what I recommend above?  If you don't understand what I was saying above, please let me know and give me some idea about your level of understanding related to mathematics, navigation, etc., so that I can speak to your level.

well, speaking for myself, I know that 2 + 2 = 5 for large values of 2.
So you can start with that understanding.

2 neutrinos + 2 neutrinos = 749 neutrinos !  ;) ;)
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4428 on: October 21, 2021, 01:57:25 PM »
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Chaucer, have you done what I recommend above?  If you don't understand what I was saying above, please let me know and give me some idea about your level of understanding related to mathematics, navigation, etc., so that I can speak to your level.

well, speaking for myself, I know that 2 + 2 = 5 for large values of 2.
So you can start with that understanding.

2 neutrinos + 2 neutrinos = 749 neutrinos !  ;) ;)

Is there a map of the Western flight path? Also, is there a side by side comparison of the two flight paths (Western and FBI)?  For instance:  The pros/cons of both?  I know there have been a lot of discussion on here, Facebook, etc. But is there a one page summary for those who do not get deep into the details?  Things like:

Western Flight Path:
Explains the Tena Bar money find (Straight line from Malay Intersection to Canby Intersection)
Shows plane flying West of Portland and Vancouver so a bomb blast/crash would not kill as many people on the ground
Matches some of what Cliff Ammerman said.


FBI Flight Path:

Tracks more closely with V23
Explains the placard find
Matches with flight logs


etc. etc.  Basically if someone just wanted to know the pros/cons and not get into an argument.


« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 01:58:08 PM by fcastle866 »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4429 on: October 21, 2021, 02:09:53 PM »
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Chaucer, have you done what I recommend above?  If you don't understand what I was saying above, please let me know and give me some idea about your level of understanding related to mathematics, navigation, etc., so that I can speak to your level.

well, speaking for myself, I know that 2 + 2 = 5 for large values of 2.
So you can start with that understanding.

2 neutrinos + 2 neutrinos = 749 neutrinos !  ;) ;)

Is there a map of the Western flight path? Also, is there a side by side comparison of the two flight paths (Western and FBI)?  For instance:  The pros/cons of both?  I know there have been a lot of discussion on here, Facebook, etc. But is there a one page summary for those who do not get deep into the details?  Things like:

Western Flight Path:
Explains the Tena Bar money find (Straight line from Malay Intersection to Canby Intersection)
Shows plane flying West of Portland and Vancouver so a bomb blast/crash would not kill as many people on the ground
Matches some of what Cliff Ammerman said.


FBI Flight Path:

Tracks more closely with V23
Explains the placard find
Matches with flight logs


etc. etc.  Basically if someone just wanted to know the pros/cons and not get into an argument.

Billfold found in front yard at 1307 C Ave East. Oskaloosa, Iowa in Nov 1955.
We note that a plane flew near Oskaloosa Iowa in Sept 1955.
The plane 'explains' the billfold found in Nov 1955.
All based on redactions and comments Ammerman made.
?

 
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4430 on: October 21, 2021, 02:19:31 PM »
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Chaucer, have you done what I recommend above?  If you don't understand what I was saying above, please let me know and give me some idea about your level of understanding related to mathematics, navigation, etc., so that I can speak to your level.



well, speaking for myself, I know that 2 + 2 = 5 for large values of 2.
So you can start with that understanding.

2 neutrinos + 2 neutrinos = 749 neutrinos !  ;) ;)

Is there a map of the Western flight path? Also, is there a side by side comparison of the two flight paths (Western and FBI)?  For instance:  The pros/cons of both?  I know there have been a lot of discussion on here, Facebook, etc. But is there a one page summary for those who do not get deep into the details?  Things like:

Western Flight Path:
Explains the Tena Bar money find (Straight line from Malay Intersection to Canby Intersection)
Shows plane flying West of Portland and Vancouver so a bomb blast/crash would not kill as many people on the ground
Matches some of what Cliff Ammerman said.


FBI Flight Path:

Tracks more closely with V23
Explains the placard find
Matches with flight logs


etc. etc.  Basically if someone just wanted to know the pros/cons and not get into an argument.

Here is a quick snapshot of a straight line from the Malay Intersection (around Toledo, WA) to the Canby Intersection (Canby, OR).  A question on this path would also be as to why there is no mention of the plane crossing I5 or flying along the Columbia River.  One answer would be cloud cover.




 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4431 on: October 21, 2021, 03:10:01 PM »
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Chaucer, have you done what I recommend above?  If you don't understand what I was saying above, please let me know and give me some idea about your level of understanding related to mathematics, navigation, etc., so that I can speak to your level.



well, speaking for myself, I know that 2 + 2 = 5 for large values of 2.
So you can start with that understanding.

2 neutrinos + 2 neutrinos = 749 neutrinos !  ;) ;)

Is there a map of the Western flight path? Also, is there a side by side comparison of the two flight paths (Western and FBI)?  For instance:  The pros/cons of both?  I know there have been a lot of discussion on here, Facebook, etc. But is there a one page summary for those who do not get deep into the details?  Things like:

Western Flight Path:
Explains the Tena Bar money find (Straight line from Malay Intersection to Canby Intersection)
Shows plane flying West of Portland and Vancouver so a bomb blast/crash would not kill as many people on the ground
Matches some of what Cliff Ammerman said.


FBI Flight Path:

Tracks more closely with V23
Explains the placard find
Matches with flight logs


etc. etc.  Basically if someone just wanted to know the pros/cons and not get into an argument.

Here is a quick snapshot of a straight line from the Malay Intersection (around Toledo, WA) to the Canby Intersection (Canby, OR).  A question on this path would also be as to why there is no mention of the plane crossing I5 or flying along the Columbia River.  One answer would be cloud cover.

post a picture - Im old fashioned!

Even if the fp went straight over the money find, that does not mean Cooper landed there given the winds at the time ... unless he drops straight down but even that is a parabolic curve!

There is no evidence of a west path. There is plenty of evidence of people trying to invent evidence to support one. The best evidence for a west path is: "Thats the way he woulda done it - or thats the way I wudda done it". West path =  DB Cooper Ivermectin/Bleach ! Report any ill effects to your doctor immediately.

Here - your pdf.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 03:17:21 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4432 on: October 21, 2021, 04:57:34 PM »
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Chaucer, have you done what I recommend above?  If you don't understand what I was saying above, please let me know and give me some idea about your level of understanding related to mathematics, navigation, etc., so that I can speak to your level.



well, speaking for myself, I know that 2 + 2 = 5 for large values of 2.
So you can start with that understanding.

2 neutrinos + 2 neutrinos = 749 neutrinos !  ;) ;)

Is there a map of the Western flight path? Also, is there a side by side comparison of the two flight paths (Western and FBI)?  For instance:  The pros/cons of both?  I know there have been a lot of discussion on here, Facebook, etc. But is there a one page summary for those who do not get deep into the details?  Things like:

Western Flight Path:
Explains the Tena Bar money find (Straight line from Malay Intersection to Canby Intersection)
Shows plane flying West of Portland and Vancouver so a bomb blast/crash would not kill as many people on the ground
Matches some of what Cliff Ammerman said.


FBI Flight Path:

Tracks more closely with V23
Explains the placard find
Matches with flight logs


etc. etc.  Basically if someone just wanted to know the pros/cons and not get into an argument.

Here is a quick snapshot of a straight line from the Malay Intersection (around Toledo, WA) to the Canby Intersection (Canby, OR).  A question on this path would also be as to why there is no mention of the plane crossing I5 or flying along the Columbia River.  One answer would be cloud cover.

The airliner was flying on Instruments above an overcast and several cloud layers.  The flight crew was using radio navigation and, if the so-called FBI flight path is correct, were apparently having a hard time staying on the centerline of V-23.  In reality, whether being flown manually or on autopilot, the airliner could stay within a few hundred feet of the centerline of V-23.  Being on instruments, the flight crew did not need any visual ground references.  That is why there is no mention of any ground objects except the "glow" through the clouds of the lights from the Vancouver/Portland area. 

When on the Western Flight Path, the airliner crew would be flying headings specified by the ATC controller.  They would not necessarily know their exact geographical position at a specific time and that is why, when Cooper jumped, Rataczak radioed (apparently over the ARINC radio/telephone link) to "mark your maps" rather than giving a specific location.  But even while on the Western Flight Path the airliner was never more than about three miles from V-23 and that was for just a few minutes and it was always in controlled airspace.

In my very first post on Dropzone in 2010, I discussed why the so-called FBI flight path (although the FBI apparently didn't have anything to do with it in the first place) could not be correct.  At that time I had never heard about the placard's find location but only became aware of it later when Tom Kaye asked me to do an analysis related to it.  The placard's find location supports the Western Flight Path, meaning that it could have come from the hijacked airliner.  But I will leave it to others to argue about whether it came from the hijacked airliner or not.

Where are these "flight logs" you mention coming from?
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4433 on: October 21, 2021, 09:42:21 PM »
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Chaucer, have you done what I recommend above?  If you don't understand what I was saying above, please let me know and give me some idea about your level of understanding related to mathematics, navigation, etc., so that I can speak to your level.

well, speaking for myself, I know that 2 + 2 = 5 for large values of 2.
So you can start with that understanding.

2 neutrinos + 2 neutrinos = 749 neutrinos !  ;) ;)

Is there a map of the Western flight path? Also, is there a side by side comparison of the two flight paths (Western and FBI)?  For instance:  The pros/cons of both?  I know there have been a lot of discussion on here, Facebook, etc. But is there a one page summary for those who do not get deep into the details?  Things like:

Western Flight Path:
Explains the Tena Bar money find (Straight line from Malay Intersection to Canby Intersection)
Shows plane flying West of Portland and Vancouver so a bomb blast/crash would not kill as many people on the ground
Matches some of what Cliff Ammerman said.


FBI Flight Path:

Tracks more closely with V23
Explains the placard find
Matches with flight logs


etc. etc.  Basically if someone just wanted to know the pros/cons and not get into an argument.

fcastle, the attached is from the Citizen Sleuths website (link below), not sure if you have seen this already or if this is what your looking for, but it has all 3 flight paths and TK/CSs conclusions:

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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4434 on: October 22, 2021, 12:03:03 AM »
bigger version of Toms chart ...
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4435 on: October 22, 2021, 12:48:38 AM »
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Chaucer, have you done what I recommend above?  If you don't understand what I was saying above, please let me know and give me some idea about your level of understanding related to mathematics, navigation, etc., so that I can speak to your level.

well, speaking for myself, I know that 2 + 2 = 5 for large values of 2.
So you can start with that understanding.

2 neutrinos + 2 neutrinos = 749 neutrinos !  ;) ;)

Is there a map of the Western flight path? Also, is there a side by side comparison of the two flight paths (Western and FBI)?  For instance:  The pros/cons of both?  I know there have been a lot of discussion on here, Facebook, etc. But is there a one page summary for those who do not get deep into the details?  Things like:

Western Flight Path:
Explains the Tena Bar money find (Straight line from Malay Intersection to Canby Intersection)
Shows plane flying West of Portland and Vancouver so a bomb blast/crash would not kill as many people on the ground
Matches some of what Cliff Ammerman said.


FBI Flight Path:

Tracks more closely with V23
Explains the placard find
Matches with flight logs


etc. etc.  Basically if someone just wanted to know the pros/cons and not get into an argument.

fcastle, the attached is from the Citizen Sleuths website (link below), not sure if you have seen this already or if this is what your looking for, but it has all 3 flight paths and TK/CSs conclusions:

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Based on the three flight paths shown, the placard could only have come from the Western Flight Path.  The winds aloft on the evening of the hijacking were from the southwest (225 degrees true) at about 30 knots down to a relatively low altitude.  Consequently, the placard would not fall straight down to land under the FBI flight path.  And it certainly would not move upwind from the blue line flight path.
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4436 on: October 22, 2021, 07:14:10 AM »

Regarding the placard, I recall about a year or so ago, Shutter and EU went back and forth on whether the placard was from the outside or inside of the plane.  With the obvious implication that IF it was from the outside, it could not be linked to flight 305.  I though that they came to a consensus or agreement that it was from the outside of the plane.  Shut, is my understanding correct ? 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 07:15:06 AM by JAG »
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4437 on: October 22, 2021, 09:38:25 AM »
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Chaucer, have you done what I recommend above?  If you don't understand what I was saying above, please let me know and give me some idea about your level of understanding related to mathematics, navigation, etc., so that I can speak to your level.

well, speaking for myself, I know that 2 + 2 = 5 for large values of 2.
So you can start with that understanding.

2 neutrinos + 2 neutrinos = 749 neutrinos !  ;) ;)

Is there a map of the Western flight path? Also, is there a side by side comparison of the two flight paths (Western and FBI)?  For instance:  The pros/cons of both?  I know there have been a lot of discussion on here, Facebook, etc. But is there a one page summary for those who do not get deep into the details?  Things like:

Western Flight Path:
Explains the Tena Bar money find (Straight line from Malay Intersection to Canby Intersection)
Shows plane flying West of Portland and Vancouver so a bomb blast/crash would not kill as many people on the ground
Matches some of what Cliff Ammerman said.


FBI Flight Path:

Tracks more closely with V23
Explains the placard find
Matches with flight logs


etc. etc.  Basically if someone just wanted to know the pros/cons and not get into an argument.

fcastle, the attached is from the Citizen Sleuths website (link below), not sure if you have seen this already or if this is what your looking for, but it has all 3 flight paths and TK/CSs conclusions:

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Robert, I've seen this a number of times, and was looking at it when I posted asking for something better.  This document does not really show towns or landmarks, it is a lot of labels with corresponding text further down the page.  I was hoping there was something more like the FBI map that shows times and towns so I could see where the WFP was on Google Maps.  Based off Bruce Smith's article that references you, it sounds like you think the plane flew a straight line from Malay to Canby.  If that's the case, then I have what I need to satisfy my curiosity.

In terms of your earlier question about "flight logs." I used that as a general term, but I realize to a pilot like yourself it means something specific.  I was referring to the 302s and communications, etc, not specifically a flight log.  Taking everything into account, I still am curious as to the pros/cons of the WFP.  I don't really debate this aspect of the case, so I just don't have the bandwith to spend a lot of time putting things down on paper.  I just figured maybe someone has.

One thing I continue to be somewhat confused about is how fast the plane was going.  1.  To determine where it was in relation to the ground 2.  To determine speed between certain points, essentially the instantaneous speed versus average speed.  3.  What was it like when he jumped out.

Citizen Sleuths quotes you as

4. Personal communication, Robert Nicholson: Mr. Nicholson did an independent calculation of the DME positions, time enroute and airspeed. His conclusions were that there was very little winds alloft and the ground speed of the plane was close to the airspeed. His analysis can be downloaded here

I was not aware that at an altitude of 10,000 feet that the relative speed could be so different.  Citizen Sleuths writes this:

7. Quick calculation of DME positions vs speed.

19:40  14 miles DME south of SEA vor (Seatac airport)
20:22  23 miles DME south of PDX  (PDX = Battleground in 1971)
Distance traveled = 130.75 miles in 42 minutes.
130.75/42=3.11 miles per minute
= 186 mph
= 161.63 knots
slight head wind

I'm guessing the 186MPH is ground speed??  If Cooper bailed out at 186 MPH versus 225MPH, would it make a big difference?  I sense it would, but then again both are pretty fast compared to what I've experienced. Granted he was going out the back and not the side.  I think it was Heady who said he jumped out going very fast.  But if he said 300 MPH, what was that? Speed in the air, over ground, relative speed compared to wind/altitude etc.

Anyhow, maybe you have a calculation of where the plane was relative to the ground at certain times.  Even if it is on the Western Flight path, at least it would show times and ground distance.  Are you able to calculate this?





 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4438 on: October 22, 2021, 04:47:54 PM »
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Chaucer, have you done what I recommend above?  If you don't understand what I was saying above, please let me know and give me some idea about your level of understanding related to mathematics, navigation, etc., so that I can speak to your level.

well, speaking for myself, I know that 2 + 2 = 5 for large values of 2.
So you can start with that understanding.

2 neutrinos + 2 neutrinos = 749 neutrinos !  ;) ;)

Is there a map of the Western flight path? Also, is there a side by side comparison of the two flight paths (Western and FBI)?  For instance:  The pros/cons of both?  I know there have been a lot of discussion on here, Facebook, etc. But is there a one page summary for those who do not get deep into the details?  Things like:

Western Flight Path:
Explains the Tena Bar money find (Straight line from Malay Intersection to Canby Intersection)
Shows plane flying West of Portland and Vancouver so a bomb blast/crash would not kill as many people on the ground
Matches some of what Cliff Ammerman said.


FBI Flight Path:

Tracks more closely with V23
Explains the placard find
Matches with flight logs


etc. etc.  Basically if someone just wanted to know the pros/cons and not get into an argument.

fcastle, the attached is from the Citizen Sleuths website (link below), not sure if you have seen this already or if this is what your looking for, but it has all 3 flight paths and TK/CSs conclusions:

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Robert, I've seen this a number of times, and was looking at it when I posted asking for something better.  This document does not really show towns or landmarks, it is a lot of labels with corresponding text further down the page.  I was hoping there was something more like the FBI map that shows times and towns so I could see where the WFP was on Google Maps.  Based off Bruce Smith's article that references you, it sounds like you think the plane flew a straight line from Malay to Canby.  If that's the case, then I have what I need to satisfy my curiosity.

In terms of your earlier question about "flight logs." I used that as a general term, but I realize to a pilot like yourself it means something specific.  I was referring to the 302s and communications, etc, not specifically a flight log.  Taking everything into account, I still am curious as to the pros/cons of the WFP.  I don't really debate this aspect of the case, so I just don't have the bandwith to spend a lot of time putting things down on paper.  I just figured maybe someone has.

One thing I continue to be somewhat confused about is how fast the plane was going.  1.  To determine where it was in relation to the ground 2.  To determine speed between certain points, essentially the instantaneous speed versus average speed.  3.  What was it like when he jumped out.

Citizen Sleuths quotes you as

4. Personal communication, Robert Nicholson: Mr. Nicholson did an independent calculation of the DME positions, time enroute and airspeed. His conclusions were that there was very little winds alloft and the ground speed of the plane was close to the airspeed. His analysis can be downloaded here

I was not aware that at an altitude of 10,000 feet that the relative speed could be so different.  Citizen Sleuths writes this:

7. Quick calculation of DME positions vs speed.

19:40  14 miles DME south of SEA vor (Seatac airport)
20:22  23 miles DME south of PDX  (PDX = Battleground in 1971)
Distance traveled = 130.75 miles in 42 minutes.
130.75/42=3.11 miles per minute
= 186 mph
= 161.63 knots
slight head wind

I'm guessing the 186MPH is ground speed??  If Cooper bailed out at 186 MPH versus 225MPH, would it make a big difference?  I sense it would, but then again both are pretty fast compared to what I've experienced. Granted he was going out the back and not the side.  I think it was Heady who said he jumped out going very fast.  But if he said 300 MPH, what was that? Speed in the air, over ground, relative speed compared to wind/altitude etc.

Anyhow, maybe you have a calculation of where the plane was relative to the ground at certain times.  Even if it is on the Western Flight path, at least it would show times and ground distance.  Are you able to calculate this?

Fcastle866 and JAG, there is some misinformation attributed to me in the above posts.  So rather than answer this particular post piecemeal, I am going to refer you back to some of the original posts on DropZone and we can start from there again.  Due to the combining of several threads when DropZone reopened the Cooper thread, this may take a few days for me to locate them.

To answer your last paragraph above, those calculations were made and originally posted on DropZone years ago.  They put the airliner almost directly overhead of Tena Bar at 8:11-8:12 PM and that accuracy surprised even me as I noted in the original post.

This matter will be continued.  Fcastle866 and JAG check your PMs.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4439 on: October 23, 2021, 03:09:42 PM »
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Chaucer, have you done what I recommend above?  If you don't understand what I was saying above, please let me know and give me some idea about your level of understanding related to mathematics, navigation, etc., so that I can speak to your level.

well, speaking for myself, I know that 2 + 2 = 5 for large values of 2.
So you can start with that understanding.

2 neutrinos + 2 neutrinos = 749 neutrinos !  ;) ;)

Is there a map of the Western flight path? Also, is there a side by side comparison of the two flight paths (Western and FBI)?  For instance:  The pros/cons of both?  I know there have been a lot of discussion on here, Facebook, etc. But is there a one page summary for those who do not get deep into the details?  Things like:

Western Flight Path:
Explains the Tena Bar money find (Straight line from Malay Intersection to Canby Intersection)
Shows plane flying West of Portland and Vancouver so a bomb blast/crash would not kill as many people on the ground
Matches some of what Cliff Ammerman said.


FBI Flight Path:

Tracks more closely with V23
Explains the placard find
Matches with flight logs


etc. etc.  Basically if someone just wanted to know the pros/cons and not get into an argument.

fcastle, the attached is from the Citizen Sleuths website (link below), not sure if you have seen this already or if this is what your looking for, but it has all 3 flight paths and TK/CSs conclusions:

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Robert, I've seen this a number of times, and was looking at it when I posted asking for something better.  This document does not really show towns or landmarks, it is a lot of labels with corresponding text further down the page.  I was hoping there was something more like the FBI map that shows times and towns so I could see where the WFP was on Google Maps.  Based off Bruce Smith's article that references you, it sounds like you think the plane flew a straight line from Malay to Canby.  If that's the case, then I have what I need to satisfy my curiosity.

In terms of your earlier question about "flight logs." I used that as a general term, but I realize to a pilot like yourself it means something specific.  I was referring to the 302s and communications, etc, not specifically a flight log.  Taking everything into account, I still am curious as to the pros/cons of the WFP.  I don't really debate this aspect of the case, so I just don't have the bandwith to spend a lot of time putting things down on paper.  I just figured maybe someone has.

One thing I continue to be somewhat confused about is how fast the plane was going.  1.  To determine where it was in relation to the ground 2.  To determine speed between certain points, essentially the instantaneous speed versus average speed.  3.  What was it like when he jumped out.

Citizen Sleuths quotes you as

4. Personal communication, Robert Nicholson: Mr. Nicholson did an independent calculation of the DME positions, time enroute and airspeed. His conclusions were that there was very little winds alloft and the ground speed of the plane was close to the airspeed. His analysis can be downloaded here

I was not aware that at an altitude of 10,000 feet that the relative speed could be so different.  Citizen Sleuths writes this:

7. Quick calculation of DME positions vs speed.

19:40  14 miles DME south of SEA vor (Seatac airport)
20:22  23 miles DME south of PDX  (PDX = Battleground in 1971)
Distance traveled = 130.75 miles in 42 minutes.
130.75/42=3.11 miles per minute
= 186 mph
= 161.63 knots
slight head wind

I'm guessing the 186MPH is ground speed??  If Cooper bailed out at 186 MPH versus 225MPH, would it make a big difference?  I sense it would, but then again both are pretty fast compared to what I've experienced. Granted he was going out the back and not the side.  I think it was Heady who said he jumped out going very fast.  But if he said 300 MPH, what was that? Speed in the air, over ground, relative speed compared to wind/altitude etc.

Anyhow, maybe you have a calculation of where the plane was relative to the ground at certain times.  Even if it is on the Western Flight path, at least it would show times and ground distance.  Are you able to calculate this?

Fcastle866 and JAG, there is some misinformation attributed to me in the above posts.  So rather than answer this particular post piecemeal, I am going to refer you back to some of the original posts on DropZone and we can start from there again.  Due to the combining of several threads when DropZone reopened the Cooper thread, this may take a few days for me to locate them.

To answer your last paragraph above, those calculations were made and originally posted on DropZone years ago.  They put the airliner almost directly overhead of Tena Bar at 8:11-8:12 PM and that accuracy surprised even me as I noted in the original post.

This matter will be continued.  Fcastle866 and JAG check your PMs.

Maybe you can drag this out until the year 2050 ?