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Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 1097564 times)

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4260 on: March 20, 2021, 08:13:33 PM »
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i agree but believe the reference was made while it was still daylight. I also mention how hard it is to identify from the sky in day or night conditions then toss in cloud coverage..

This is a good point.

In the day with a cloudless sky, one may be able to pick out a landmark or two--i.e., Mt Rainier--which makes places somewhat easier to identify. However, with moderate cloud cover where some of the ground is covered, recognizing a specific area by way of looking down through a hole in the clouds is very difficult--again, unless you are very familiar with the area.

they wouldn't be at 10,000 flying by Tacoma..not even sure what altitude they flew back but they start descending to land or go into a holding pattern.

They would have passed Tacoma on the way up. Not sure what the altitude would have been but 10K sounds perfectly reasonable--if not higher. They were up there for hours.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4261 on: March 20, 2021, 08:19:36 PM »
Who did he tell this to. Tina was in the cockpit by that time. scratch that...I'm thinking of McChord..
« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 08:21:33 PM by Shutter »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4262 on: March 20, 2021, 08:24:53 PM »
Un scratch  :rofl: Tina would be in the cockpit at this point. I doubt he was sight seeing when they left SeaTac.

I'm in the middle of something and a little distracted..
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4263 on: March 20, 2021, 08:27:24 PM »
Reading Flyjacks last post I'm wondering where all these undocumented oscillations are coming from or what the 8:05 contact would have to do with oscillations.

Eric, didn't you say the crew contacted Cooper at 8:05 due to turbulence. this should be noticed on the FDR.
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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4264 on: March 20, 2021, 08:32:56 PM »
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Reading Flyjacks last post I'm wondering where all these undocumented oscillations are coming from or what the 8:05 contact would have to do with oscillations.

Eric, didn't you say the crew contacted Cooper at 8:05 due to turbulence. this should be noticed on the FDR.

I read or heard something from Bill 1 or Bill 2...I don't think it's in the files--that there was a bump of turbulence which prompted the 8:05 (or perhaps it was 8:03) outreach to the back.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4265 on: March 20, 2021, 08:38:00 PM »
The response was at 8:05 so, it could of been a minute earlier. they made two attempts...imagine being at the bottom of the stairs...(which he wasn't)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 08:38:33 PM by Shutter »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4266 on: March 20, 2021, 08:55:58 PM »
Mason creek that drains into the east fork lewis river....
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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4267 on: March 20, 2021, 09:30:18 PM »
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The response was at 8:05 so, it could of been a minute earlier. they made two attempts...imagine being at the bottom of the stairs...(which he wasn't)

From what I gather from Rataczak, as DBC started walking down the stairs there were some noticeable happenings that got somewhat more pronounced as the airstairs lowered further into the air stream. Then, shortly thereafter, it culminated in the diving board pop.

Both of these events were recorded in real time by Bill. First, he mentioned that Cooper must be doing something with the stairs. Then he mentioned, you may want to note your maps because our friend may have taken leave of us--or words to that effect.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4268 on: March 20, 2021, 11:23:40 PM »
A conversation with Cooper was at the start of the flight. he had trouble with the stairs. they leveled off at 7,000 and slowed the plane down for Cooper, including switching to 30 degree flaps. the 8:05 transmission was not a conversation. the answer is proof along with two attempts to contact him. the conversation was 20 minutes earlier..based on what Eric has mentioned, turbulence was the reason they contacted him at 8:05.

This is another thing that needs to be brought up at the conference..
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4269 on: March 20, 2021, 11:56:44 PM »
I like what FJ is doing. He may have filled in a gap that may be crucial.

7:50-53  quick climb 7000 to 10,000 and hold. 170-180 knots. Crew on O2]

7:54 pm     
MSP:      As soon as reasonably sure the man has left the quicker you can land.
305:       Roger. Miss Mucklow said he apparently has the knapsack around him
and thinks he will attempt a jump. 
MSP:      Roger. After leaving this freq go to 131.8 we have direct phone patch
There (to Company and FBI)
305:       Roger.

With this comm everyone is alerted that Cooper may be bailing soon. After leaving this freq go to 131.8 we have direct phone patch ... to the company.

8:01 pm   
MSP:      What is altitude?
305:      Now at 15 thousand.  (typo) Indicator 160. Fuel flow 4000. 15 degree flap.
Gear down. CQN will stay at 10,000 until he has left.
MSP:      Roger.

CQN will stay at 10,000 until he has left.  

8:05 pm           
305:      Have attempted on two occasions to make contact with individual he
did not reply. Then used PA system and he said, “Everything is Ok”.
MSP:      Roger.

Establishes Cooper still on the plane.


ANDERSON SAID, more time passed from 8:05 = 7 minutes later..

THIS HAS TO BE THE JUMP TIME (mark your maps)
8:12 pm   
305:   Getting some oscillations in the cabin. Must be doing something with
 the air stairs.
MSP:      Roger.

FJ's estimated best guess jump time?
 

Crew discusses and waits to call it in..
 
8:20 pm   
305:   Called. (no response from Cooper)
MSP:      Go to 131.8 (phone patch to company on that freq.)
SEADD:   He (Nyrop?) is already on that frequency.
MSP:      Roger. We are on the phone and will be talking to him shortly.
SEADD:   Roger

People have conjectured what this means. Called? Called who? Called company? But FJ may have nailed this: called for Cooper! That makes sense in the total context of these passages. But, they waited a long time, until 8:20, to call to see if anyone answers in the back. No answer. FJ may have nailed what "Called" means and who was Called.   

By 8:20 305 is across the Columbia and in Oregon, and Cooper is long gone. Called to the back at 8:20 and nobody answered. They might have not waited so long and called at 8:15 to see if anyone answered. 8:15-20 the crew may be busy talking to the Company etal explaining what has happened and trying to recover the correct jump time and place . . . finally as a check they think to call to the back one more time: no answer. Cooper is gone. 

In addition, this establishes that the timestamps are neutral. Whether west-path vs. east-path ... the timestamps are a neutral fact. 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 12:14:58 AM by georger »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4270 on: March 21, 2021, 12:26:05 AM »
How do you jump at 8:11 and state he doing something with the stairs at 8:12 on the radio that has the time correct. cooper left?

They have always went by the 8:11 mark.

When you look at the Harrison files problems exist as well. 8:18 is written for the 23 miles DME. the next entry is 8:52 but Harrison has it written as 9:00 which makes sense since he reports the crews last contact 55 minutes ago. the transcripts log the time at 8:52 which would be 8 minutes off. the same 8:52 entry states they are over the Eugene VOR which is 79 NM from the 23 mile location. using the 3 minute rule it comes up short of making Eugene by 16 minutes.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 12:28:24 AM by Shutter »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4271 on: March 21, 2021, 12:36:22 AM »
7:54 pm     
MSP:      As soon as reasonably sure the man has left the quicker you can land.
305:       Roger. Miss Mucklow said he apparently has the knapsack around him
and thinks he will attempt a jump.

This is a delayed response from the question asked to 305. Tina seen him as she pulled the curtain closed going up front at around 7 40 ish. the ground starts the conversation about Cooper leaving prompting them to respond to what Tina seen.
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4272 on: March 21, 2021, 12:37:25 AM »
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How do you jump at 8:11 and state he doing something with the stairs at 8:12 on the radio that has the time correct. cooper left?

They have always went by the 8:11 mark.

When you look at the Harrison files problems exist as well. 8:18 is written for the 23 miles DME. the next entry is 8:52 but Harrison has it written as 9:00 which makes sense since he reports the crews last contact 55 minutes ago. the transcripts log the time at 8:52 which would be 8 minutes off. the same 8:52 entry states they are over the Eugene VOR which is 79 NM from the 23 mile location. using the 3 minute rule it comes up short of making Eugene by 16 minutes.

I would think real-time transmissions-reports would take priority over 2nd hand party notes put together after the fact? At no time was Harrison actively involved on the plane in real time.   
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4273 on: March 21, 2021, 12:42:04 AM »
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7:54 pm     
MSP:      As soon as reasonably sure the man has left the quicker you can land.
305:       Roger. Miss Mucklow said he apparently has the knapsack around him
and thinks he will attempt a jump.

This is a delayed response from the question asked to 305. Tina seen him as she pulled the curtain closed going up front at around 7 40 ish. the ground starts the conversation about Cooper leaving prompting them to respond to what Tina seen.

So what are you saying? "Called" at 8:20 does not refer to them calling the back but to someone else?
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4274 on: March 21, 2021, 12:45:54 AM »
My above comment had nothing to do with the 8:20 entry?

Harrison was writing down things in real time. kind of hard to dispute.
Teletype, FDR, recordings can have error's for different reasons.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 12:49:15 AM by Shutter »
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