Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 1097561 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4245 on: March 20, 2021, 04:23:29 PM »
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Burying the money with a boat is completely different. Obviously he could bury the cash then take the boat to another marina or beach and go about doing whatever he needs to do on land.

It's not like the cash is in the trunk of his car. It's not like the river is teeming with police.

Frankly it's a hell of a lot more plausible than the other options requiring floating logs, and unnoticed bodies, and money that finds its way out of the bank bag.
Was it L'Hommedieu who said that if he were Cooper, he would have used the river as a reference point on where to jump?
And just exactly would he have seen the river through an undercast and two more cloud layers on a dark and rainy night?
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4246 on: March 20, 2021, 05:29:52 PM »
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Burying the money with a boat is completely different. Obviously he could bury the cash then take the boat to another marina or beach and go about doing whatever he needs to do on land.

It's not like the cash is in the trunk of his car. It's not like the river is teeming with police.

Frankly it's a hell of a lot more plausible than the other options requiring floating logs, and unnoticed bodies, and money that finds its way out of the bank bag.
Was it L'Hommedieu who said that if he were Cooper, he would have used the river as a reference point on where to jump?
And just exactly would he have seen the river through an undercast and two more cloud layers on a dark and rainy night?

If he bails at 8:11 his drift is not taking him anywhere near the river to see it for a landing or not! He is drifting away from the Columbia not too it.

You were not there in any event to see or not see - anything! The best you can give is an OPINION which you have stated 10,000000 times. You might contact Ratczk and tell him to withdraw his statement - because you know better based on your OPINION.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 05:31:05 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4247 on: March 20, 2021, 05:45:23 PM »
From 10,000 seeing things on the ground at night with no cloud coverage is not going to be simple either. the river will be black. sure there were gaps in the clouds but it's not going to be that simple to survey the ground. a gap in the clouds in the flight path won't allow you to see east and west if you are above the clouds or in them.  Rat stated they were "in the soup"
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4248 on: March 20, 2021, 06:01:47 PM »
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From 10,000 seeing things on the ground at night with no cloud coverage is not going to be simple either. the river will be black. sure there were gaps in the clouds but it's not going to be that simple to survey the ground. a gap in the clouds in the flight path won't allow you to see east and west if you are above the clouds or in them.  Rat stated they were "in the soup"

The issues for me is how good a navigator was Cooper and could he see any ground markers. Did he know the area from above? Did he know the area at all, from any reference point? He knew he started from Portland, going to SEA, he referenced Tacoma, .......... we have no idea what his capabilities were. Could R99 have succeeded where R99 says Cooper failed and died ? 
« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 06:03:35 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4249 on: March 20, 2021, 06:10:43 PM »
It's really hard to figure out if Cooper was a navigator. he would need to stay in contact with the crew. Remember, McCoy was an experienced pilot and skydiver and still acted as a copilot to get where he wanted. Cooper had to assume where he was or assume he was on V23. if he flew any other flights the odds are it was a different route and altitude. I don't see the area well lit except for the dam. we don't even know if that would bleed through or gaps were in the clouds.

We don't seem to have any pilots that could fly over the area at night under the same conditions. that would be nice..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4250 on: March 20, 2021, 06:33:09 PM »
R99, any input on what Flyjack has been presenting?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4251 on: March 20, 2021, 07:14:10 PM »
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From 10,000 seeing things on the ground at night with no cloud coverage is not going to be simple either. the river will be black. sure there were gaps in the clouds but it's not going to be that simple to survey the ground. a gap in the clouds in the flight path won't allow you to see east and west if you are above the clouds or in them.  Rat stated they were "in the soup"

The issues for me is how good a navigator was Cooper and could he see any ground markers. Did he know the area from above? Did he know the area at all, from any reference point? He knew he started from Portland, going to SEA, he referenced Tacoma, .......... we have no idea what his capabilities were. Could R99 have succeeded where R99 says Cooper failed and died ?

I am not dumb enough to try something like that in the first place.  I am not a member of Mensa, and at one time an even more selective such organization, for nothing.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4252 on: March 20, 2021, 07:16:08 PM »
I believe it was daylight when Cooper describes things on the ground?
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4253 on: March 20, 2021, 07:24:42 PM »
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I believe it was daylight when Cooper describes things on the ground?

There's also an assumption that DBC was correct. Meaning, we can't be certain that he actually pointed out Tacoma from the air and that it wasn't some other place.

I've said before that I've flown in and out of Seattle hundreds of times, therefore I am extremely familiar with the entire region which is huge. Tacoma--or for that matter, any specific location--isn't particularly easy to identify. If DBC was correct about identifying Tacoma, he had to have lived there or spent a lot of time flying in and out.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4254 on: March 20, 2021, 07:46:06 PM »
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R99, any input on what Flyjack has been presenting?

I don't know how accurate radar plots were in 1971.  But the rule of thumb for VORTAC stations was that when 60 nautical miles from the station, one degree was about 1 nautical mile wide.  This plus the accuracy of the cockpit VOR receiver (which was allowed to be off by + or - two degrees from the selected radial, if I remember correctly), and making allowances for safety, is why airways were 4 nautical miles wide on each side of the radial that specified the airway.  Some airways are wider than that for greater distances from the VORTAC station.

If the same accuracy applied to the McChord AFB radar, then the FBI flight path could actually be about 3 nautical miles wide in the Portland area.  But this flight path can be argued until Georger's cows come home.

FlyJack's main interest seems to be doing anything to support a flight path that contradicts the Western Flight Path.   
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4255 on: March 20, 2021, 07:50:43 PM »
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I believe it was daylight when Cooper describes things on the ground?

There's also an assumption that DBC was correct. Meaning, we can't be certain that he actually pointed out Tacoma from the air and that it wasn't some other place.

I've said before that I've flown in and out of Seattle hundreds of times, therefore I am extremely familiar with the entire region which is huge. Tacoma--or for that matter, any specific location--isn't particularly easy to identify. If DBC was correct about identifying Tacoma, he had to have lived there or spent a lot of time flying in and out.

EU is correct.  It is not as easy to identify specific parts of urban areas at night as you might think.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4256 on: March 20, 2021, 07:52:37 PM »
i agree but believe the reference was made while it was still daylight. I also mention how hard it is to identify from the sky in day or night conditions then toss in cloud coverage..
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4257 on: March 20, 2021, 08:01:04 PM »
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i agree but believe the reference was made while it was still daylight. I also mention how hard it is to identify from the sky in day or night conditions then toss in cloud coverage..

This is a good point.

In the day with a cloudless sky, one may be able to pick out a landmark or two--i.e., Mt Rainier--which makes places somewhat easier to identify. However, with moderate cloud cover where some of the ground is covered, recognizing a specific area by way of looking down through a hole in the clouds is very difficult--again, unless you are very familiar with the area.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4258 on: March 20, 2021, 08:01:45 PM »
I believe the Air Force has the same system excluding the Sage. the problem with the sage is during that period 17 of the 23 radar stations were closed...
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4259 on: March 20, 2021, 08:02:45 PM »
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i agree but believe the reference was made while it was still daylight. I also mention how hard it is to identify from the sky in day or night conditions then toss in cloud coverage..

This is a good point.

In the day with a cloudless sky, one may be able to pick out a landmark or two--i.e., Mt Rainier--which makes places somewhat easier to identify. However, with moderate cloud cover where some of the ground is covered, recognizing a specific area by way of looking down through a hole in the clouds is very difficult--again, unless you are very familiar with the area.

they wouldn't be at 10,000 flying by Tacoma..not even sure what altitude they flew back but they start descending to land or go into a holding pattern.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 08:04:27 PM by Shutter »