Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 916489 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #405 on: September 26, 2014, 02:18:17 PM »
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I don't know unless they are just showing a map they used? Ariel is boxed off?

the caption to the photo reads: A map used in 1972 during the search for D.B. Cooper. (The Associated Press/provided by seattlepi.com file)

What is the attachment limit here?  I cant post any of the newspaper page photos I have here ???


192 kb's. what size is your documents?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 02:19:06 PM by shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #406 on: September 27, 2014, 12:44:59 AM »
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I don't know unless they are just showing a map they used? Ariel is boxed off?

the caption to the photo reads: A map used in 1972 during the search for D.B. Cooper. (The Associated Press/provided by seattlepi.com file)

What is the attachment limit here?  I cant post any of the newspaper page photos I have here ???


192 kb's. what size is your documents?

The last one I tried to post was 200kb. Can the limit be increased?


 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #407 on: September 27, 2014, 12:49:31 AM »
yes, I'll increase it now.....
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #408 on: September 27, 2014, 02:53:12 AM »
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yes, I'll increase it now.....

let us know what its increased to ???
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #409 on: September 27, 2014, 10:18:31 AM »
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yes, I'll increase it now.....

let us know what its increased to ???


I set it at 200 kb's. it tells you at the bottom where you "choose file"

Allowed file types: doc, gif, jpg, mpg, pdf, png, txt, zip
Restrictions: 3 per post, maximum total size 668KB, maximum individual size 200KB
 

Offline hom

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #410 on: October 20, 2014, 04:03:16 PM »
What is that "NO" on the flightpath plot released by the FBI?
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It isn't "NO."  It's a repaired "NB."

The full flightpath plot was made in three pieces which were then stuck together.  Each piece was plotted on an aeronautical chart.  The piece that had 44°N through 46°N was cut off along a constant-latitude line about 1/4 minute north of the 46°N line.  This piece was then pasted down on top of the corresponding part of the piece that covered 46°N and northward.  This covered up material that was on the latter (northern) piece of chart.

The material that was covered up is apparent from magnifying the 46°N vicinity of the higher resolution flightpath plot we've discussed some in the past.  It includes part of a state name.  It includes arrows for time annotations that had been written on the northern piece of chart.  And, it includes the lower part of the "NB" that had been written on that piece of chart.

After the central chart piece was stuck on the more northern piece, someone replaced the part of the "B" that had been covered but did not replace the covered part of the "N."  And the replaced part of the "B" was done with a narrower, less dense marker.

What about the meaning of "NB"?

The "B" means that the 1°x1° quadrangle in which "NB" appears is in a 1° wide band of latitude that is the second such band north of the latitude baseline (45°N) of zone DK.  The "N" means that the quadrangle is in a 1° band of longitude that is the 13th band starting from the western baseline (135°W longitude) of that zone DK.  To those who know the coordinate system, the "NB" means the 1°x1° quadrangle is the one lying between 46°N, 123°W and 47°N, 122°W.  By convention the code was placed in the lower left corner of the quadrangle.

A couple of questions are obvious.  What's that "zone DK"?  And, why all the complexity?  You can look right on the chart and see that the 1°x1° quadrangle lies between 46°N, 123°W and 47°N, 122°W.  First question first.

This is all part of a thing called the "world geographic reference system," conventionally abbreviated "GEOREF."  This obsolete system was used by the air force and army air force.  It is pretty much equivalent to latitude and longitude except that it identifies areas, rather than points, and cannot be nearly as precise.

In the system, the longitudes of the world are divided into 24 15°-wide bands of longitude eastward from the 180° longitude meridian.  These bands are assigned letters from A to Z, excluding I and O, starting at the band on the east side of 180° longitude.

Similarly, latitudes are divided into twelve 15° bands which are assigned letters A to M starting at the band adjacent to the south pole.

The intersections of the 15°-wide latitude bands and longitude bands creates zones which are 15°x15° quadrangles which are uniquely identified by the letter for the longitude zone followed by the letter for the latitude zone.

Using this system, the fourth longitude band (designated "D") would extend from 135°W to 120°W and would encompass the areas with which we are concerned.  Latitude band J would be 30°N to 45°N and would encompass the areas of the flightpath south of about Salem, OR and latitude band K would be 45°N to 60°N and would encompass the areas north of Salem.  Hence the areas south of Salem would be in 15°x15° quadrangle (zone) DJ and the areas to the north would be in zone DK.

This system also includes breaking each of the 15° bands (lat and lon) into 15 1°-wide bands.  These then are assigned letters A to Q (skipping I and O) from the south and from the east.  Because the longitudes between 123° and 122° are the 13th band, the longitude band is assigned letter "N," and this is the first letter of the identifications of all the 1°x1° quadrangles in the areas of the flightpath.  The three quandrangles north of 45°N are DKNA, DKNB and DKNC.  The system uses 2 letters to identify large quadrangles, plus 2 more letters to identify the smaller quadrangles within the large ones.

The three 1°x1° quadrangles south of 45°N are the 13th, 14th and 15th in the "N" longitude zone of 15°x15° quadrangle DJ, so they are DJNN, DJNP and DJNQ.  The "NP" was not marked on the lower half of the complete flightpath plot, but the "NN" and "NQ" were.  So the NN and NQ on the plot are not "in sequence" with the NA, NB and NC in the upper half of the plot because they are in a different 15°x15° quadrangle than the NA, NB and NC.

So, to the second question.  Why put the notations on the chart?

The notations are conspicuous.  They were put on the separate pieces before the pieces were put together and served to make it easy and quick for the people who put the pieces together to put them together in the right sequence.  It was an assembly aid.  Those people were accustomed to the GEOREF system.  Up until about 1971 the quadrangle identifications had been preprinted on the airforce edition aero charts the people were accustomed to using.  Those charts also included explanations of how to use the system to identify and reference 1-minute by 1-minute geographical areas.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 05:17:35 PM by hom »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #411 on: October 20, 2014, 04:31:14 PM »
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What is that "NO" on the flightpath plot released by the FBI?
(re. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login)

It isn't "NO."  It's a repaired "NB."

The full flightpath plot was made in three pieces which were then stuck together.  Each piece was plotted on an aeronautical chart.  The piece that had 44°N through 46°N was cut off along a constant-latitude line about 1/4 minute north of the 46°N line.  This piece was then pasted down on top of the corresponding part of the piece that covered 46°N and northward.  This covered up material that was on the latter (northern) piece of chart.

The material that was covered up is apparent from magnifying the 46°N vicinity of the higher resolution flightpath plot we've discussed some in the past.  It includes part of a state name.  It includes arrows for time annotations that had been written on the northern piece of chart.  And, it includes the lower part of the "NB" that had been written on that piece of chart.

After the central chart piece was stuck on the more northern piece, someone replaced the part of the "B" that had been covered but did not replace the covered part of the "N."  And the replaced part of the "B" was done with a narrower, less dense marker.

What about the meaning of "NB"?

The "B" means that the 1°x1° quadrangle in which "NB" appears is in a 1° wide band of latitude that is the second such band north of the latitude baseline (45°N) of zone DK.  The "N" means that the quadrangle is in a 1° band of longitude that is the 13th band starting from the western baseline (135°W longitude) of that zone DK.  To those who know the coordinate system, the "NB" means the 1°x1° quadrangle is the one lying between 46°N, 123°W and 47°N, 122°W.  By convention the code was placed in the lower left corner of the quadrangle.

A couple of questions are obvious.  What's that "zone DK"?  And, why all the complexity?  You can look right on the chart and see that the 1°x1° quadrangle lies between 46°N, 123°W and 47°N, 122°W.  First question first.

This is all part of a thing called the "world geographic reference system," conventionally abbreviated "GEOREF."  This obsolete system was used by the air force and army air force.  It is pretty much equivalent to latitude and longitude except that it identifies areas, rather than points, and cannot be nearly as precise.

In the system, the longitudes of the world are divided into 24 15°-wide bands of longitude eastward from the 180° longitude meridian.  These bands are assigned letters from A to Z, excluding I and O, starting at the band on the east side of 180° longitude.

Similarly, latitudes are divided into twelve 15° bands which are assigned letters A to M starting at the band adjacent to the south pole.

The intersections of the 15°-wide latitude bands and longitude bands creates zones which are 15°x15° quadrangles which are uniquely identified by the letter for the longitude zone followed by the letter for the latitude zone.

Using this system, the fourth longitude band (designated "D") would extend from 135°W to 120°W and would encompass the areas with which we are concerned.  Latitude band J would be 30°N to 45°N and would encompass the areas of the flightpath south of about Salem, OR and latitude band K would be 45°N to 60°N and would encompass the areas north of Salem.  Hence the areas south of Salem would be in 15°x15° quadrangle (zone) DJ and the areas to the north would be in zone DK.

This system also includes breaking each of the 15° bands (lat and lon) into 15 1°-wide bands.  These then are assigned letters A to Q (skipping I and O) from the south and from the east.  Because the longitudes between 123° and 122° are the 13th band, the longitude band is assigned letter "N," and this is the first letter of the identifications of all the 1°x1° quadrangles in the areas of the flightpath.  The three quandrangles north of 45°N are DKNA, DKNB and DKNC.  The system uses 2 letters to identifies large quadrangles, plus 2 more letters to identify the smaller quadrangles within the large ones.

The three 1°x1° quadrangles south of 45°N are the 13th, 14th and 15th in the "N" longitude zone of 15°x15° quadrangle DJ, so they are DJNN, DJNP and DJNQ.  The "NP" was not marked on the lower half of the complete flightpath plot, but the "NN" and "NQ" were.  So the NN and NQ on the plot are not "in sequence" with the NA, NB and NC in the upper half of the plot because they are in a different 15°x15° quadrangle than the NA, NB and NC.

So, to the second question.  Why put the notations on the chart?

The notations are conspicuous.  They were put on the separate pieces before the pieces were put together and served to make it easy and quick for the people who put the pieces together to put them together in the right sequence.  It was an assembly aid.  Those people were accustomed to the GEOREF system.  Up until about 1971 the quadrangle identifications had been preprinted on the airforce edition aero charts the people were accustomed to using.  Those charts also included explanations of how to use the system to identify and reference 1-minute by 1-minute geographical areas.

Yes. It all makes sense, now. Thanks!
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #412 on: October 20, 2014, 07:28:46 PM »
Nice report Hominid....as usual. thanks for clearing it up. didn't Jo claim she wrote "No" on the map  8)

« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 07:30:43 PM by shutter »
 

Offline hom

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #413 on: October 20, 2014, 08:00:56 PM »
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Nice report Hominid....as usual. thanks for clearing it up. didn't Jo claim she wrote "No" on the map  8)

Thanks.  Haven't a clue re. her claiming it.  Don't read much of what she writes.  Too hard to figure out what she's trying to say.
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #414 on: October 20, 2014, 11:00:57 PM »
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Nice report Hominid....as usual. thanks for clearing it up. didn't Jo claim she wrote "No" on the map  8)

Thanks.  Haven't a clue re. her claiming it.  Don't read much of what she writes.  Too hard to figure out what she's trying to say.

Jo DID claim that she wrote "NO" on the map.  But that doesn't mean that she had even seen it before it turned up online here.
 
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 11:07:49 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #415 on: October 20, 2014, 11:12:42 PM »
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Nice report Hominid....as usual. thanks for clearing it up. didn't Jo claim she wrote "No" on the map  8)

Thanks.  Haven't a clue re. her claiming it.  Don't read much of what she writes.  Too hard to figure out what she's trying to say.

Jo DID claim that she wrote "NO" on the map.  But that doesn't mean that she had even seen it before it turned up online here.

I seriously doubt the FBI would allow someone to scribble on potential evidence, or something that could be used in Court. obviously the letters have been on there from the beginning.  8)
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #416 on: October 20, 2014, 11:56:47 PM »
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Nice report Hominid....as usual. thanks for clearing it up. didn't Jo claim she wrote "No" on the map  8)

Thanks.  Haven't a clue re. her claiming it.  Don't read much of what she writes.  Too hard to figure out what she's trying to say.

Jo DID claim that she wrote "NO" on the map.  But that doesn't mean that she had even seen it before it turned up online here.

I seriously doubt the FBI would allow someone to scribble on potential evidence, or something that could be used in Court. obviously the letters have been on there from the beginning.  8)

Hominid may have just uncovered the reason(s) that the FBI chart is nonsense.  It looks like that chart is a montage of all the charts they could get their hands on and may have combined nautical miles, statute miles, meters, and who knows what else, in its creation. 

Trying to understand that map is one of those "Abandon Hope" type of situations.

Goggle "US Army Map Reading and Land Navigation Handbook", which is FM 3-25-26, to learn more about all the unusual military type of map reference systems including GEOREF.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #417 on: October 21, 2014, 12:27:09 AM »
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Nice report Hominid....as usual. thanks for clearing it up. didn't Jo claim she wrote "No" on the map  8)



That's a good one!  :) :) :) :) :)   Like Hom I never can follow Jo Weber but she definitely said she knew 'who' had written "NO" on the chart and I think she said the "NO" referred to "NOT THE REAL FLIGHT MAP" or something to that effect. She obviously failed to see all the other "NX"'s below the "NO". Oh well. Typical Jo.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 12:30:18 AM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #418 on: October 21, 2014, 12:32:00 AM »
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Nice report Hominid....as usual. thanks for clearing it up. didn't Jo claim she wrote "No" on the map  8)

Thanks.  Haven't a clue re. her claiming it.  Don't read much of what she writes.  Too hard to figure out what she's trying to say.

Jo DID claim that she wrote "NO" on the map.  But that doesn't mean that she had even seen it before it turned up online here.

Are you saying people's posts create Jo's next headline?    :)
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #419 on: October 21, 2014, 12:47:27 AM »
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Nice report Hominid....as usual. thanks for clearing it up. didn't Jo claim she wrote "No" on the map  8)

Thanks.  Haven't a clue re. her claiming it.  Don't read much of what she writes.  Too hard to figure out what she's trying to say.

Jo DID claim that she wrote "NO" on the map.  But that doesn't mean that she had even seen it before it turned up online here.

Are you saying people's posts create Jo's next headline?    :)

Yes, indeed!  Just make a post that Batman was involved in the Cooper hijacking and Jo will weave him into one of her five page posts and include first hand stories of how Batman and Duane were pub-crawling buddies.  And how Duane attended Robin's Bar Mitzvah.