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Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 1099694 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3645 on: October 26, 2020, 07:22:26 PM »
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ITS ALREADY BEEN DONE!

Sandia Labs Report. by Bustamonte 1968
Free-Fall Rotation and Aerodynamic Motion of Rectangular ...
apps.dtic.mil › dtic › fulltext
PDF
It is believed that a rectangular plate will continuously autorotate about an axis which is free in flight. This behavior may be compared to the motion of a strip of paper of aspect ratio two or more. .... When dropped in still air, the strip rotates and descends along an inclined path. When dropped in other conditions ...
by AC Bustamante · ‎1968 ·

This is the report that Hominid and others used when evaluating the placard analysis of Robt Nicholson, esq. years ago!

Any drone drops of sheets and other paraphernalia will have "no" validity whatever to the DB Cooper placard analysis etc.

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Georger,

I just happen to be the one who found that reference about 10 years ago and used it in the initial free fall analysis for TK as well as all subsequent analyses.  That reference was the best information available at that time on such free fall tests.

Test drops of the actual placard will be of much greater value.

Georger's claim that the tests proposed by Shutter will not be valid is just more of his nonsense.
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3646 on: October 26, 2020, 07:38:53 PM »
I’m actually a certified python hunter in the state of Florida!

I’m confused. How can dropping a placard from 400 feet demonstrate what happens to a placard at 10,000 feet? Wouldn’t winds be much different?
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3647 on: October 26, 2020, 08:09:51 PM »
I'm basically trying to find out what happens to the placard if it's damaged or undamaged. how the two may differ in distance or how they act falling. one has a considerable tear in it that I'm guessing would float and drift different than a placard almost square. auto rotations, spins etc. the damaged one would appear to have more drag on it like having a streamer affect causing it to spiral vs roll or rotate. I'm also guessing terminal is different here unlike a solid object you calculate to find it's terminal..

Little or no wind is what R99 is looking for and I guess he will add wind data to it, I don't know..
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 08:14:27 PM by Shutter »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3648 on: October 26, 2020, 08:30:21 PM »
I don't know what will happen but it should be fun to find out. we have no idea if the placard folded during the higher winds or what it really did or even the speed. we use to test hurricane shutters. a 2 x 4 six feet long will only travel 32 mph in 150 mph winds. that's what is shot at the hurricane products in testing. then a positive and negative load is put on them.

I think it's worth a shot..what can it hurt?
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3649 on: October 26, 2020, 11:28:05 PM »
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ITS ALREADY BEEN DONE!

Sandia Labs Report. by Bustamonte 1968
Free-Fall Rotation and Aerodynamic Motion of Rectangular ...
apps.dtic.mil › dtic › fulltext
PDF
It is believed that a rectangular plate will continuously autorotate about an axis which is free in flight. This behavior may be compared to the motion of a strip of paper of aspect ratio two or more. .... When dropped in still air, the strip rotates and descends along an inclined path. When dropped in other conditions ...
by AC Bustamante · ‎1968 ·

This is the report that Hominid and others used when evaluating the placard analysis of Robt Nicholson, esq. years ago!

Any drone drops of sheets and other paraphernalia will have "no" validity whatever to the DB Cooper placard analysis etc.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Georger,

I just happen to be the one who found that reference about 10 years ago and used it in the initial free fall analysis for TK as well as all subsequent analyses.  That reference was the best information available at that time on such free fall tests.

Test drops of the actual placard will be of much greater value.

Georger's claim that the tests proposed by Shutter will not be valid is just more of his nonsense.

Sandia Labs Report. by Bustamonte 1968
Free-Fall Rotation and Aerodynamic Motion of Rectangular ...
apps.dtic.mil › dtic › fulltext
PDF
It is believed that a rectangular plate will continuously autorotate about an axis which is free in flight. This behavior may be compared to the motion of a strip of paper of aspect ratio two or more. .... When dropped in still air, the strip rotates and descends along an inclined path. When dropped in other conditions ...
by AC Bustamante · ‎1968 ·

This is the report that Hominid and others used when evaluating the placard analysis of Robt Nicholson, esq. years ago!

Any drone drops of sheets and other paraphernalia will have "no" validity whatever to the DB Cooper placard analysis etc.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

See Hominid's posts about this at DZ. R99 the 'engineer' is still in denial.  ???
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 11:30:05 PM by georger »
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3650 on: October 26, 2020, 11:32:45 PM »
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I’m actually a certified python hunter in the state of Florida!

I’m confused. How can dropping a placard from 400 feet demonstrate what happens to a placard at 10,000 feet? Wouldn’t winds be much different?

Parts removed...

Billions-trillions-uncountable leaflets have been dropped over land before from all kinds of altitudes from planes for example, during something called 'wars'....  :-X
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 12:32:19 AM by Shutter »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3651 on: October 27, 2020, 12:33:11 AM »
Quote
See Hominid's posts about this at DZ. R99 the 'engineer' is still in denial.

Similar to the 302's you go crazy on when not enough information is provided to find the page and PDF number one can ask the same here.

Page and post number, links or portion of his work etc.? Hominid had 225 posts on the DZ. do we have to read them all?

As I mentioned several posts back prior to your last comment that I was aware of wartime leaflet drops. I should also add they were dropped by the thousands over a large area to insure of hitting the target.

My goal is to see how two of the same placards, one is missing one side with a large tear almost in the center more than half way up to see how it will float/drift compared to one that isn't damaged. what if one lands 500 feet away while the other only 100 feet 10 times in a row? if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 12:33:27 AM by Shutter »
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3652 on: October 27, 2020, 02:22:03 AM »
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I’m actually a certified python hunter in the state of Florida!

I’m confused. How can dropping a placard from 400 feet demonstrate what happens to a placard at 10,000 feet? Wouldn’t winds be much different?

As Shutter has pointed out in an earlier post, the winds will be added later.

The information that Shutter produces will be analyzed to determine the drag coefficient of the placard.  The multiple drops from different heights will produce some scatter in the reduced drag coefficients and will require some judgment to determine the drag coefficient to be used for the analysis of the drop from 10,000 feet.

In all probability, the drag coefficient determined from Shutter's tests will be in the neighborhood of 1.0.  There are several technical sources to support the value being in that neighborhood, but nothing beats test data for the actual placard.  And with the actual measured winds aloft data that Tom Kaye came up with, we will have measured values for all the factors involved in the placard drift.  No wild guesses or estimates needed.

Incidentally, FJ claims that the measured winds aloft data are meaningless. 
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 02:27:36 AM by Robert99 »
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3653 on: October 27, 2020, 02:31:05 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
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You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
ITS ALREADY BEEN DONE!

Sandia Labs Report. by Bustamonte 1968
Free-Fall Rotation and Aerodynamic Motion of Rectangular ...
apps.dtic.mil › dtic › fulltext
PDF
It is believed that a rectangular plate will continuously autorotate about an axis which is free in flight. This behavior may be compared to the motion of a strip of paper of aspect ratio two or more. .... When dropped in still air, the strip rotates and descends along an inclined path. When dropped in other conditions ...
by AC Bustamante · ‎1968 ·

This is the report that Hominid and others used when evaluating the placard analysis of Robt Nicholson, esq. years ago!

Any drone drops of sheets and other paraphernalia will have "no" validity whatever to the DB Cooper placard analysis etc.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Georger,

I just happen to be the one who found that reference about 10 years ago and used it in the initial free fall analysis for TK as well as all subsequent analyses.  That reference was the best information available at that time on such free fall tests.

Test drops of the actual placard will be of much greater value.

Georger's claim that the tests proposed by Shutter will not be valid is just more of his nonsense.

Sandia Labs Report. by Bustamonte 1968
Free-Fall Rotation and Aerodynamic Motion of Rectangular ...
apps.dtic.mil › dtic › fulltext
PDF
It is believed that a rectangular plate will continuously autorotate about an axis which is free in flight. This behavior may be compared to the motion of a strip of paper of aspect ratio two or more. .... When dropped in still air, the strip rotates and descends along an inclined path. When dropped in other conditions ...
by AC Bustamante · ‎1968 ·

This is the report that Hominid and others used when evaluating the placard analysis of Robt Nicholson, esq. years ago!

Any drone drops of sheets and other paraphernalia will have "no" validity whatever to the DB Cooper placard analysis etc.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

See Hominid's posts about this at DZ. R99 the 'engineer' is still in denial.  ???

I can't recall Hominid posting anything about the drift calculations made for TK.  But if Georger can provide a viable link to such a post, I will take a look at it.
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3654 on: October 27, 2020, 09:40:40 AM »
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I don't know what will happen but it should be fun to find out. we have no idea if the placard folded during the higher winds or what it really did or even the speed. we use to test hurricane shutters. a 2 x 4 six feet long will only travel 32 mph in 150 mph winds. that's what is shot at the hurricane products in testing. then a positive and negative load is put on them.

I think it's worth a shot..what can it hurt?
I didn't mean to sound like I was asking "Why bother?". I was asking if dropping it from 400 feet would provide enough data to extrapolate out to 10,00 feet. I was thinking more of the logistics rather than the motivation.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3655 on: October 27, 2020, 01:18:22 PM »
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I don't know what will happen but it should be fun to find out. we have no idea if the placard folded during the higher winds or what it really did or even the speed. we use to test hurricane shutters. a 2 x 4 six feet long will only travel 32 mph in 150 mph winds. that's what is shot at the hurricane products in testing. then a positive and negative load is put on them.

I think it's worth a shot..what can it hurt?
I didn't mean to sound like I was asking "Why bother?". I was asking if dropping it from 400 feet would provide enough data to extrapolate out to 10,00 feet. I was thinking more of the logistics rather than the motivation.

It's not extrapolation.  It is just determining one factor that is valid for any altitude involved here.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3656 on: October 28, 2020, 04:07:54 PM »
Shutter,

A new poster on DropZone has made his first post and it is a picture of a 727 simulator.  This brings up a question which you may be able to answer based on your home simulator experience.

Could Cooper have gained his knowledge, at least what he got correctly, about 727s from an 727 simulator?  Or even a Microsoft type simulation of the 727?
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3657 on: October 28, 2020, 05:56:34 PM »
Looking on the DZ you can see that Boeing had one. something like that would cost a lot of money for the private sector. they had the money to build them..the airlines might of sent them to Boeing...

Here is the very first one build in the 30's. looks like a submarine  :rofl:



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« Last Edit: October 29, 2020, 09:45:48 PM by Shutter »
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3658 on: November 10, 2020, 10:48:38 PM »
DFS346 has posted an FBI message, dated June 23, 2005, on DropZone that should be of interest to people here.  I recommend everyone read it.  It contains quite a bit of information on several Cooper related matters but I will quote just one as follows:

"1.  FLIGHT DATA FROM FAA AND OTHER SOURCES CONCERNIG FLIGHT PATH:  I know of no instance in which this was provided or discussed within anyone outside of LE.  Suggest referring them to public reported sources."

"LE" stands for Law Enforcement and "public reported sources" refers to the public media.

This suggests that the so-called "FBI Flight Path" did not originate within the FBI's investigation or was released by the FBI.  Apparently Carr was just trying to find out who did it and where it came from.

It is a given that the FBI had access to every thing the FAA, USAF, and NWA did on this subject. 

The above FBI quotes eliminates completely and totally any claims that dispute the Western Flight Path.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 10:52:02 PM by Robert99 »
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Offline andrade1812

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3659 on: November 10, 2020, 11:03:28 PM »
I read that way differently. It reads to me as if the author (whichever SA at the time) had yet to release the yellow map; which was true at the time (as far as I know). Carr didn't release the yellow map until 2007 or 2008 right?
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