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I’m going to ask a respectful, straightforward question, but one that is bound to rile everyone up.

What physical evidence (excluding personal opinions or feelings) exists that suggest a Western Flight Path?

I know that R99 will say that “this has been discussed since 2009” and/or some form of “do your own research”, so he is excused from answering. But I’d appreciate to hear some hard evidence and facts that point toward a flight path that puts the plane above Tena Bar.

I also don’t want to hear arguments why the presumed FBI flight path is wrong. That’s a different question.

I would like to hear factual evidence that indicate the Western Flight Path is accurate.

1) The placard find location.

2) The fiberglass skirt find location.

3) The money find location.

and along the same lines but focusing on the opposite...

4) The complete lack of a single piece of physical evidence pointing to any other flight path. None. Zilch. Nada. Zero. After 49 years.

Your argument is circular. A fallacy. No to mention its all according to you!

Frankly, you and R99 have a lot of gall claiming that your work is superior to that of the Air Force who had the radar tapes in hand.

Circular reasoning is when you attempt to make an argument by beginning with the assumption(s) that what you are trying and needing to prove, is already true.  You are assuming that each of your points above are true, only if your flight path is true! And therefore your flight path must be true!

Georger,

Based on your last paragraph above, you wouldn't know what circular reasoning is if it bit you in the butt.  The facts that EU has repeated above is what led to the conclusion that the so-called Western Flight Path was the correct one for the airliner.  And that is not circular reasoning.

To repeat for the record, I joined DropZone in early 2009 after Sluggo told me about it and how to find the Cooper thread.  I then spent more than a year researching the hijacking and the flight path, obtaining information from the National Archives and other sources, and doing my own calculations. Based on my training and experience as a professional Aeronautical Engineer, a pilot since the age of 15, and a very limited amount of parachuting, I concluded that there was no way the so-called FBI flight path could be correct.  And I discussed the flight path problems in my very first post on DropZone in the summer or 2010.

There was a knee jerk reaction to that post from some of the entrenched Cooper true believers, including yourself if I remember correctly. But none of the true believers have been able to come up with a single valid point to disprove the so-called Western Flight Path.  It is not a faith-based creation.

And again for the record, I stand by everything that I have done on the Western Flight Path since 2009.

The facts that EU has repeated above ?  The money find is a fact of the flight path? Since when? Since you and EU said so, thats when! To cite just one example.

You are going in circles making assumptions you are not entitled to make. Circles you have no independent proof for.

We all know this is hopeless with you. You cant use the money find as a FACT that proves any flight path. The two are completely independent. Ergo - circularity.

Look for deer scat that proves your west path?   

When you and Ulis get radar tapes be sure to tell the world. No reverse engineering by cult leaders allowed!

Oh and BTW: water flows down hill in case you forgot.

Let me provide some background on my involvement with the Western Flight Path.

At first I saw the FBI Flight Path and didn't question it. Why would I? However, it didn't take long before I realized that there were some major problems that I could not reasonably explain away. Specifically, the fact that nothing had been found in the FBI search along the FBI Flight Path, and the fact that the money was found at Tena Bar.

Later I came upon R99's analysis of the placard drift that was posted on Tom Kaye's site--I believe the conclusion was that it drifted 2.7 miles to the northeast. This wasn't a shocking thing in my mind but notable.

However, I still had a hard time explaining why 305 was flying so erratically according to the FBI Flight Path especially considering the pilots were afraid that there was a live bomb in back that could easily detonate if it fell off a chair, and because the pilots appeared to be extra sensitive about DBC's "No funny stuff" comment." Indeed, they didn't even squawk 7700 because they were afraid DBC would interpret that as "funny stuff."

Then I read R99's theory about the jet flying directly from Maylay to Canby--I don't believe he referred to this as the Western Flight Path per se because I think I came up with that term--but it made a lot of sense considering some of the problems that I identified with the FBI Flight Path.

Later I got my hands on an actual placard which enabled me to provide R99 with some updated size and weight numbers for the placard that he could use to reevaluate the placard's drift. Also, Tom Kaye provided updated and more accurate weather data. In the end, R99's new placard drift analysis showed a much longer drift for the placard which I immediately realized created a very big problem for the FBI Flight Path and also lined up perfectly with the Western Flight Path.

Next, there was the discovery of the FBI file that told the story of the fiberglass skirt find. This too immediately suggested a problem with the FBI Flight Path and pointed to a path out of Seattle that I suspected all along--in other words, a due south departure and heading for the first several miles as the plane gained speed and altitude with gear down, flaps down, and airstairs ajar.

Ultimately all of this convinced me that some version of the Western Flight Path was the true path and it got me thinking about where the FBI Flight Path came from. This caused me to eventually theorize that the FBI Flight Path was probably crafted using radar data from their own F-106's, albeit accidentally. In other words, the circuitous FBI Flight Path was actually the path of the F-106's and not 305.

I closing, I realize that R99 and I carry a unique burden in that we are obligated to prove that the Western Flight Path is right and that the FBI Flight Path is wrong. I say this because we are the ones challenging conventional wisdom which places the burden on us to convince you that we're right, and not necessarily the other way around.

Nonetheless, I think a thorough assessment of the facts as we know them tend to support the Western Flight Path and disprove the FBI Flight Path. Of course, I realize others are going to disagree.

EU, if you will indulge me, I have a question for you regarding the Cinebar panel find. In the FBI memo you found, it states:

"[The panel] fit directly above the rear stairs door."

However, in the photographs taken at the Reno airport that purport to show damage to the aft stairs, it seems to show "damage" to the paneling beneath the railing. How do you explain this discrepancy? Did the panel come from 305's aft stair railing as suggested in the photos? Or above the rear stairs door as stated in the memo?

The confusion comes from the fact that the airstairs literally is a door. The airstairs are affixed to the back/top of the door. When the door is closed, and you walk into the back section of the jet you see that the stairs are on top of the door as are the fiberglass panels.

Let me provide some background on my involvement with the Western Flight Path.

At first I saw the FBI Flight Path and didn't question it. Why would I? However, it didn't take long before I realized that there were some major problems that I could not reasonably explain away. Specifically, the fact that nothing had been found in the FBI search along the FBI Flight Path, and the fact that the money was found at Tena Bar.

Later I came upon R99's analysis of the placard drift that was posted on Tom Kaye's site--I believe the conclusion was that it drifted 2.7 miles to the northeast. This wasn't a shocking thing in my mind but notable.

However, I still had a hard time explaining why 305 was flying so erratically according to the FBI Flight Path especially considering the pilots were afraid that there was a live bomb in back that could easily detonate if it fell off a chair, and because the pilots appeared to be extra sensitive about DBC's "No funny stuff" comment." Indeed, they didn't even squawk 7700 because they were afraid DBC would interpret that as "funny stuff."

Then I read R99's theory about the jet flying directly from Maylay to Canby--I don't believe he referred to this as the Western Flight Path per se because I think I came up with that term--but it made a lot of sense considering some of the problems that I identified with the FBI Flight Path.

Later I got my hands on an actual placard which enabled me to provide R99 with some updated size and weight numbers for the placard that he could use to reevaluate the placard's drift. Also, Tom Kaye provided updated and more accurate weather data. In the end, R99's new placard drift analysis showed a much longer drift for the placard which I immediately realized created a very big problem for the FBI Flight Path and also lined up perfectly with the Western Flight Path.

Next, there was the discovery of the FBI file that told the story of the fiberglass skirt find. This too immediately suggested a problem with the FBI Flight Path and pointed to a path out of Seattle that I suspected all along--in other words, a due south departure and heading for the first several miles as the plane gained speed and altitude with gear down, flaps down, and airstairs ajar.

Ultimately all of this convinced me that some version of the Western Flight Path was the true path and it got me thinking about where the FBI Flight Path came from. This caused me to eventually theorize that the FBI Flight Path was probably crafted using radar data from their own F-106's, albeit accidentally. In other words, the circuitous FBI Flight Path was actually the path of the F-106's and not 305.

I closing, I realize that R99 and I carry a unique burden in that we are obligated to prove that the Western Flight Path is right and that the FBI Flight Path is wrong. I say this because we are the ones challenging conventional wisdom which places the burden on us to convince you that we're right, and not necessarily the other way around.

Nonetheless, I think a thorough assessment of the facts as we know them tend to support the Western Flight Path and disprove the FBI Flight Path. Of course, I realize others are going to disagree.

Ultimately all of this convinced me that some version of the Western Flight Path was the true path and it got me thinking about where the FBI Flight Path came from. This caused me to eventually theorize that the FBI Flight Path was probably crafted using radar data from their own F-106's, albeit accidentally. In other words, the circuitous FBI Flight Path was actually the path of the F-106's and not 305.

Why would you think the above? Based on what evidence vs. just dreaming something up?

You are saying everyone who worked on the history of the flight path back in the 2000s including all principle players interviewed - were all WRONG AND LYING? Is this what you are saying?

You are saying the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Center (DC) and the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES) didn't know what they were doing - and were all incompetent and wrong! You are saying the margin of error these folks were operating in was so large, that 305 was actually anywhere on a north-south line between Seattle and Portland! No wonder some people say Cooper bailed over Mt St Helens, or just outside Reno ! 

That's one helluva a claim. What it is is complete historical ignorance on your part. But that's fine. Some people still insist the world is flat. Yours is a Conspiracy Theory that dismisses all historical facts! What your theory has exposed is that there does not exist on any DB Cooper Forum an accurate comprehensive historical account of how the socalled FBI Flight Path was put together and by whom. An account that everyone can accept because it is true. That only proves that Reality shows on forums and are not Reality!

There is some profound gap in people's educations at Forums that wont even allow them to use the words:  McChord Air Defense Command Direction Center (DC) and the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES) !    

Thanks, EU. I had kind of surmised that, but wanted your input.

You mentioned in an earlier post that the panel was found on "public hunting grounds" near Cinebar, but the memo only states "while hunting in the Cinebar, Washington area". Is there other documentation about this location outside of the memo? Something that would point to "public hunting grounds"? Knowing a more specific location is really key IMO.

I made an assumption that it was public hunting land because there is a large hunting region just east of Cinebar that is controlled by the state. Yes, the word "public" is my word.

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Let me provide some background on my involvement with the Western Flight Path.

At first I saw the FBI Flight Path and didn't question it. Why would I? However, it didn't take long before I realized that there were some major problems that I could not reasonably explain away. Specifically, the fact that nothing had been found in the FBI search along the FBI Flight Path, and the fact that the money was found at Tena Bar.

Later I came upon R99's analysis of the placard drift that was posted on Tom Kaye's site--I believe the conclusion was that it drifted 2.7 miles to the northeast. This wasn't a shocking thing in my mind but notable.

However, I still had a hard time explaining why 305 was flying so erratically according to the FBI Flight Path especially considering the pilots were afraid that there was a live bomb in back that could easily detonate if it fell off a chair, and because the pilots appeared to be extra sensitive about DBC's "No funny stuff" comment." Indeed, they didn't even squawk 7700 because they were afraid DBC would interpret that as "funny stuff."

Then I read R99's theory about the jet flying directly from Maylay to Canby--I don't believe he referred to this as the Western Flight Path per se because I think I came up with that term--but it made a lot of sense considering some of the problems that I identified with the FBI Flight Path.

Later I got my hands on an actual placard which enabled me to provide R99 with some updated size and weight numbers for the placard that he could use to reevaluate the placard's drift. Also, Tom Kaye provided updated and more accurate weather data. In the end, R99's new placard drift analysis showed a much longer drift for the placard which I immediately realized created a very big problem for the FBI Flight Path and also lined up perfectly with the Western Flight Path.

Next, there was the discovery of the FBI file that told the story of the fiberglass skirt find. This too immediately suggested a problem with the FBI Flight Path and pointed to a path out of Seattle that I suspected all along--in other words, a due south departure and heading for the first several miles as the plane gained speed and altitude with gear down, flaps down, and airstairs ajar.

Ultimately all of this convinced me that some version of the Western Flight Path was the true path and it got me thinking about where the FBI Flight Path came from. This caused me to eventually theorize that the FBI Flight Path was probably crafted using radar data from their own F-106's, albeit accidentally. In other words, the circuitous FBI Flight Path was actually the path of the F-106's and not 305.

I closing, I realize that R99 and I carry a unique burden in that we are obligated to prove that the Western Flight Path is right and that the FBI Flight Path is wrong. I say this because we are the ones challenging conventional wisdom which places the burden on us to convince you that we're right, and not necessarily the other way around.

Nonetheless, I think a thorough assessment of the facts as we know them tend to support the Western Flight Path and disprove the FBI Flight Path. Of course, I realize others are going to disagree.

Ultimately all of this convinced me that some version of the Western Flight Path was the true path and it got me thinking about where the FBI Flight Path came from. This caused me to eventually theorize that the FBI Flight Path was probably crafted using radar data from their own F-106's, albeit accidentally. In other words, the circuitous FBI Flight Path was actually the path of the F-106's and not 305.

Why would you think the above? Based on what evidence vs. just dreaming something up?

You are saying everyone who worked on the history of the flight path back in the 2000s including all principle players interviewed - were all WRONG AND LYING? Is this what you are saying?

You are saying the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Center (DC) and the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES) didn't know what they were doing - and were all incompetent and wrong! You are saying the margin of error these folks were operating in was so large, that 305 was actually anywhere on a north-south line between Seattle and Portland! No wonder some people say Cooper bailed over Mt St Helens, or just outside Reno ! 

That's one helluva a claim. What it is is complete historical ignorance on your part. But that's fine. Some people still insist the world is flat. Yours is a Conspiracy Theory that dismisses all historical facts! What your theory has exposed is that there does not exist on any DB Cooper Forum an accurate comprehensive historical account of how the socalled FBI Flight Path was put together and by whom. An account that everyone can accept because it is true. That only proves that Reality shows on forums and are not Reality!

There is some profound gap in people's educations at Forums that wont even allow them to use the words:  McChord Air Defense Command Direction Center (DC) and the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES) !    

GEORGER there are times when you have your head up your ass and this is one of them. I am not accusing anyone of lying. Where do I ever accuse anyone of lying?

Also, I'm not accusing anyone of being involved in a conspiracy. Look up the definition of conspiracy. Conspiracy implies malice. Where do I ever accuse anyone of a conspiracy.

How do you respond to Major Dawson's comments? Apparently the FBI Flight Path was not unanimous at McChord.

What I am saying is that people make mistakes. Now if you want to debate that point I think the argument is over before it even begins.

These are taken in Reno. The damage and missing panels are circled.

Yes, I've seen those photos before. They're compelling. But I was under the impression that the FBI believed that there was no damage to the airliner. How do you know if and when it was repaired?

There was clearly damage to the airstairs. It's quite visible on the news footage. Bill Kurtis even mentions the airstairs being "in shreds" from Reno on the famous Walter Cronkite news footage.