Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 983892 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3165 on: August 03, 2020, 07:15:50 PM »
Did George Harrison redact his notes?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3166 on: August 03, 2020, 07:17:30 PM »
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The "redaction" starts 12 seconds into the flight. what could they be covering up? some places have seconds to have something "redacted" between known transmissions..that would be two communications in seconds..one has a 5 second break between..then it goes past the point of the jump. all the way to 9:38.

Was the transcripts redacted when Paul S. was making the plots for the LZ..wouldn't he be able to simple lay it out vs tweaking the LZ with multiple maps?  at what point did the Air Force, Paul and the FBI decide to redact or was it just the FBI's doing? or is it similar to what Ammerman claimed of other transmissions not related to the hijacking removed..It's a little confusing and screams conspiracy. not that that can't happen but that's what it implies...

As I have pointed out repeatedly, if you want to know what the Seattle ATC transcripts should look like just take a look at the Oakland ATC and Reno transcripts.  They don't have a single redaction.  They are textbook ATC communications for the 1971 era.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3167 on: August 03, 2020, 07:21:23 PM »
They could of cleared the air by that time? The FDR was examined "minutely" with altitude and heading would be a very useful tool?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3168 on: August 03, 2020, 07:28:20 PM »
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Who would do this and make Paul and the Air Force come to false conclusions? how would the Air Force skip over the obvious, or Paul saying "something is wrong here" ? who got the transcripts first and what would the FBI even know about them if they got them first?

The FBI apparently got the Seattle ATC transcripts first and both the ATC station chiefs in Seattle and Oakland "certified" that their transcripts were "complete and true".  This is not the case for Seattle ATC transcript that has been publicly released.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3169 on: August 03, 2020, 07:35:10 PM »
You have no reason to believe the Air Force was plotting the path prior to making the map. they have both radar's? then they allow Paul to make multiple drop maps and spend thousands of dollars, couple hundreds men, planes, helicopters looking in the wrong location for weeks on end just so only they were the only one's who knew where he jumped? kind of crazy no?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3170 on: August 03, 2020, 07:59:07 PM »
What would this be?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3171 on: August 03, 2020, 08:08:51 PM »
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You have no reason to believe the Air Force was plotting the path prior to making the map. they have both radar's? then they allow Paul to make multiple drop maps and spend thousands of dollars, couple hundreds men, planes, helicopters looking in the wrong location for weeks on end just so only they were the only one's who knew where he jumped? kind of crazy no?

I have never claimed that the Air Force was plotting the path prior to making the map.  The USAF and Seattle ATC controllers were probably using the information from the same radar station at McChord AFB.  That raw information was without question being recorded since that was the customary practice in 1971 as well as today.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3172 on: August 03, 2020, 08:24:37 PM »
I didn't question whether you said that..I questioned whether or not you would believe they might of plotted the course while it was on going..Wasn't NORAD tracking as well?

It's just odd the FBI would withhold critical data to Northwest airlines who was monitoring the flight anyway, along with the Air Force. the Harrison notes don't have critical data either?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3173 on: August 03, 2020, 09:10:21 PM »
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I didn't question whether you said that..I questioned whether or not you would believe they might of plotted the course while it was on going..Wasn't NORAD tracking as well?

It's just odd the FBI would withhold critical data to Northwest airlines who was monitoring the flight anyway, along with the Air Force. the Harrison notes don't have critical data either?

There is no reason for NORAD to be tracking this airliner even if was monitoring the hijacking and it probably was.  NORAD was concerned with things a bit further away from Seattle.  The alert and armed F-106 aircraft from McChord were probably under the ultimate control of NORAD but I doubt that they would have shot down the civilian airliner over the continental US without military and political authorization from the highest levels in DC.

A few years ago, a prominent golfer was on a LearJet that lost pressurization while on autopilot (but not altitude hold) which resulted in every one on board dying.  The aircraft continued to fly from Florida trailed by F-16s but ran out of fuel and and eventually crashed in a remote area near the Canadian border.  My understanding is that POTUS was informed of the problem and that he might have to make a decision about shooting it down if that became necessary, but fortunately it didn't.   
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3174 on: August 03, 2020, 09:14:46 PM »
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Did George Harrison redact his notes?

There is no indication that Harrison redacted his notes or that he gave them to the FBI.  But the ARINC teletype records were redacted according to Fred Poynter at the WSHM.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3175 on: August 03, 2020, 10:02:52 PM »
This is my point..it doesn't make any sense to redact anything related to the flight path unless it's going to be public knowledge. why in the world would they try to hide things from people involved while listening to the hijacking live, and taking notes. removing radio transmissions from other pilots might be considered redacting if they removed them prior to releasing the transcripts to anyone?

I could see the FBI possibly doing something like this down the road but certainly not straight out of the gate causing the FBI a lot of money knowing they were searching in the wrong location. then you would have NWO asking questions surrounding what they heard and what the map shows. the Air Force scratching there heads..who told the radar operator's to say what they did on record given possibly ground locations and correcting positions to V-23? this would be a rather large audience to try and bluff. why didn't the FBI look where only they believed he jumped? nobody reported any search parties around the Columbia, right. they just let him go?

I think we have a huge communication break down with all involved. Pilots failed to properly identify the location. didn't seem to have any real concern about Cooper still on the plane after 8:20 ish..might be on the plane, might not? reports over the years from the FBI saying "we really didn't know where he jumped" I kinda stick to my thoughts of them getting caught with there pants down..scramble mania....
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3176 on: August 03, 2020, 10:21:57 PM »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3177 on: August 04, 2020, 12:03:34 AM »
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I didn't question whether you said that..I questioned whether or not you would believe they might of plotted the course while it was on going..Wasn't NORAD tracking as well?

It's just odd the FBI would withhold critical data to Northwest airlines who was monitoring the flight anyway, along with the Air Force. the Harrison notes don't have critical data either?

There is no reason for NORAD to be tracking this airliner even if was monitoring the hijacking and it probably was.  NORAD was concerned with things a bit further away from Seattle.  The alert and armed F-106 aircraft from McChord were probably under the ultimate control of NORAD but I doubt that they would have shot down the civilian airliner over the continental US without military and political authorization from the highest levels in DC.

A few years ago, a prominent golfer was on a LearJet that lost pressurization while on autopilot (but not altitude hold) which resulted in every one on board dying.  The aircraft continued to fly from Florida trailed by F-16s but ran out of fuel and and eventually crashed in a remote area near the Canadian border.  My understanding is that POTUS was informed of the problem and that he might have to make a decision about shooting it down if that became necessary, but fortunately it didn't.   

Agree. No way 305 would have been shot down without the Highest authorisation. However, if Cooper had killed the crew and taken control of the plane and was diving on Portland .... all bets are off. I doubt the F106's could have intervened in time?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3178 on: August 04, 2020, 12:05:51 AM »
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Did George Harrison redact his notes?

There is no indication that Harrison redacted his notes or that he gave them to the FBI.  But the ARINC teletype records were redacted according to Fred Poynter at the WSHM.

Didnt Fred Poynter base that on several people looking at the transcripts ? Is Fred Poynter qualified to make such a judgement on his own?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3179 on: August 04, 2020, 12:14:20 AM »
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This is my point..it doesn't make any sense to redact anything related to the flight path unless it's going to be public knowledge. why in the world would they try to hide things from people involved while listening to the hijacking live, and taking notes. removing radio transmissions from other pilots might be considered redacting if they removed them prior to releasing the transcripts to anyone?

I could see the FBI possibly doing something like this down the road but certainly not straight out of the gate causing the FBI a lot of money knowing they were searching in the wrong location. then you would have NWO asking questions surrounding what they heard and what the map shows. the Air Force scratching there heads..who told the radar operator's to say what they did on record given possibly ground locations and correcting positions to V-23? this would be a rather large audience to try and bluff. why didn't the FBI look where only they believed he jumped? nobody reported any search parties around the Columbia, right. they just let him go?

I think we have a huge communication break down with all involved. Pilots failed to properly identify the location. didn't seem to have any real concern about Cooper still on the plane after 8:20 ish..might be on the plane, might not? reports over the years from the FBI saying "we really didn't know where he jumped" I kinda stick to my thoughts of them getting caught with there pants down..scramble mania....

I think we have a huge communication break down with all involved. Pilots failed to properly identify the location. didn't seem to have any real concern about Cooper still on the plane after 8:20 ish..might be on the plane, might not? reports over the years from the FBI saying "we really didn't know where he jumped" I kinda stick to my thoughts of them getting caught with there pants down..scramble mania....

TAG team members who were interviewed said the Air Force analysis group was aware the 305 crew dropped the ball, especially in waiting to call in the oscillation/pressure spike ... thus BD's statement:

"AND, it appears we don't know accurately when Cooper jumped due to the pilot not calling it in, except that the NWA and USAF people who did the '72 search zone map thought (with benefit of the "pressure bump" signature on the flight data recorder) that he jumped at about 19 seconds before 8:11. That could off off by a minute or two and everyone realized that."

These uncertainties are why the NWA Search map is a probability map with zones/lines of certainty vs uncertainty. Otherwise their map would have a small box on it saying - this when and where DB jumped and landed!

« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 12:16:28 AM by georger »