Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues (Read 983878 times)

georger · « **Reply #3150 on:** August 03, 2020, 01:09:49 AM »

What next?

It has been obvious for years that R99 and EU are going to stick to their west path agenda, no matter what anyone says. I think that's 100% accurate. This isn't about evidence and discussion. It's a one sided debate! That prediction has a higher accuracy rate based on time and energy spent alone, than any prediction associated with ANY FLIGHT PATH or ANY MONEY FIND THEORY. Personality and mission defines methodology in this case. Las Vegas could give odds on that happening!

At some point either 99 or EU could simply say: 'well I see you have run out of debating points - everyone has spoken and you still havent proved your case. Therefore the west path stands - proven by attrition if nothing else!' The last man standing principle. Them vs Us. The last man standing wins.

I see no point in discussing anything else because there can be no real discussion. That's my sense of where this is at.

Chaucer · « **Reply #3151 on:** August 03, 2020, 02:18:38 AM »

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The placard was found approximately two and a half miles EAST of the center line of V 23.

The placard find in relation to the V23 centerline is meaningless. The only thing that matters is the relation of the placard find to where the FBI said the jet itself was flying. Therefore, to discover the placard to the WEST of the FBI Flight Path is very problematic considering the winds were heading toward the northeast. Simply put, the FBI's identified location of the jet cannot be accurate. It had to have been several miles WEST.

So, you’ll use the FBI flight path when it’s convenient and dismiss it when it’s not?

Look, you’re ignoring a third possibility. That the flight was tow or three miles west of the the V23 centerline it not so far west as to put it to the west of I-5.

EU · « **Reply #3152 on:** August 03, 2020, 02:51:04 AM »

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So, you’ll use the FBI flight path when it’s convenient and dismiss it when it’s not?

I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. I think you need to re-read what I've been writing about this all along.

Chaucer · « **Reply #3153 on:** August 03, 2020, 03:33:17 AM »

I’m not arguing that the FBI flight as presented in the penciled map is perfectly accurate. I think there’s a margin of error. But I don’t think that margin extends all the way west to Centralia and Woodland. If the path was a two or three miles west of the V23 centerline it would still be in the V23 and it would account for the placard location. It’s not magical.

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #3154 on:** August 03, 2020, 05:12:28 AM »

My understanding from Ammerman is that the western edge of V-23 is at Woodland and the I-5. From there it extends 9.2 statute miles eastwards. Battleground is approximately 8 miles east of the I-5. So everything kinda fits.

In addition, Heisson and Amboy are in the 12-14-mile-east range of Woodland.

Shutter · « **Reply #3155 on:** August 03, 2020, 07:58:28 AM »

Skyvector indicates I-5 being around 3 NM to Battleground Vortac. the range to the Columbia will differ since they don't run parallel to each other. Columbia river is approx. 7 NM from Battleground Vortac and around 6 NM from T bar to V-23 (center)

georger · « **Reply #3156 on:** August 03, 2020, 04:24:20 PM »

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My understanding from Ammerman is that the western edge of V-23 is at Woodland and the I-5. From there it extends 9.2 statute miles eastwards. Battleground is approximately 8 miles east of the I-5. So everything kinda fits.

In addition, Heisson and Amboy are in the 12-14-mile-east range of Woodland.

Follow your own reporting/interviews. Focus on that! It's worth noting that the AF had a tactical (Defense Mission) interest in knowing where 305 was. This is all happening on 11/24 in real time. This was a real time defense mission with lawful options open and available. This was NOT some bunch of Cooper aficionados speculating about some hijacking going on with who-what-where and would there be a Cooper Con this year? I am relatively certain Scott/Rataczak/Anderson were aware of the military tactical options now on the table should their hijacked plane come to pose an actual risk to the public or National Defense, based on events unfolding. The F-106's had an actual tactical mission. This was no game.

As a result a review of the matter was conducted - routine: "The flight path coordinates were calculated from data tape recorded at the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Center (DC). The calculation and the plotting were almost certainly done by the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES). It was their job to do such analyses, and the DC were just users of the system. It was all in a day's work for them.

The flightpath was produced by experts. Within the limits of its precision, it is right. Unfortunately, the precision is only one minute of latitude and longitude. And, the times associated with the plotted points may be off by a minute. AND, it appears we don't know accurately WHEN Coop jumped due to the pilot not calling it in, except that the NWA and USAF people who did the '72 search zone map thought (with benefit of the "pressure bump" signature on the flight data recorder) that he jumped at about 19 seconds before 8:11. That could off off by a minute or two and everyone realized that."

Very like the FAA was given a report.

Robert99 · « **Reply #3157 on:** August 03, 2020, 04:38:40 PM »

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My understanding from Ammerman is that the western edge of V-23 is at Woodland and the I-5. From there it extends 9.2 statute miles eastwards. Battleground is approximately 8 miles east of the I-5. So everything kinda fits.

In addition, Heisson and Amboy are in the 12-14-mile-east range of Woodland.

Follow your own reporting/interviews. Focus on that! It's worth noting that the AF had a tactical (Defense Mission) interest in knowing where 305 was. This is all happening on 11/24 in real time. This was a real time defense mission with lawful options open and available. This was NOT some bunch of Cooper aficionados speculating about some hijacking going on with who-what-where and would there be a Cooper Con this year? I am relatively certain Scott/Rataczak/Anderson were aware of the military tactical options now on the table should their hijacked plane come to pose an actual risk to the public or National Defense, based on events unfolding. The F-106's had an actual tactical mission. This was no game.

As a result a review of the matter was conducted - routine: "The flight path coordinates were calculated from data tape recorded at the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Center (DC). The calculation and the plotting were almost certainly done by the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES). It was their job to do such analyses, and the DC were just users of the system. It was all in a day's work for them.

The flightpath was produced by experts. Within the limits of its precision, it is right. Unfortunately, the precision is only one minute of latitude and longitude. And, the times associated with the plotted points may be off by a minute. AND, it appears we don't know accurately WHEN Coop jumped due to the pilot not calling it in, except that the NWA and USAF people who did the '72 search zone map thought (with benefit of the "pressure bump" signature on the flight data recorder) that he jumped at about 19 seconds before 8:11. That could off off by a minute or two and everyone realized that."

Very like the FAA was given a report.

Georger, you continue to ignore the very simple fact that the 19 redactions in the Seattle ATC transcripts were intended to remove any possibility of determining the exact location of the airliner in the Portland area. And those transcripts are actually in the public domain.

Shutter · « **Reply #3158 on:** August 03, 2020, 04:48:59 PM »

Quote

the 19 redactions in the Seattle ATC transcripts were intended to remove any possibility of determining the exact location of the airliner in the Portland area.

Basically, you are saying the exact locations are known by the FBI but they went ahead and looked in the wrong location?

Shutter · « **Reply #3159 on:** August 03, 2020, 05:15:38 PM »

The "redaction" starts 12 seconds into the flight. what could they be covering up? some places have seconds to have something "redacted" between known transmissions..that would be two communications in seconds..one has a 5 second break between..then it goes past the point of the jump. all the way to 9:38.

Was the transcripts redacted when Paul S. was making the plots for the LZ..wouldn't he be able to simple lay it out vs tweaking the LZ with multiple maps? at what point did the Air Force, Paul and the FBI decide to redact or was it just the FBI's doing? or is it similar to what Ammerman claimed of other transmissions not related to the hijacking removed..It's a little confusing and screams conspiracy. not that that can't happen but that's what it implies...

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #3160 on:** August 03, 2020, 06:08:52 PM »

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Skyvector indicates I-5 being around 3 NM to Battleground Vortac. the range to the Columbia will differ since they don't run parallel to each other. Columbia river is approx. 7 NM from Battleground Vortac and around 6 NM from T bar to V-23 (center)

I was estimating distances from the Starbucks in Woodland to the Starbucks in Battleground. I should have been more specific. ( smile...)

Chaucer · « **Reply #3161 on:** August 03, 2020, 06:16:42 PM »

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Skyvector indicates I-5 being around 3 NM to Battleground Vortac. the range to the Columbia will differ since they don't run parallel to each other. Columbia river is approx. 7 NM from Battleground Vortac and around 6 NM from T bar to V-23 (center)

I was estimating distances from the Starbucks in Woodland to the Starbucks in Battleground. I should have been more specific. ( smile...)

It’s a well known fact that Cooper couldn’t resist a warm caramel macchiato with whipped cream.

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #3162 on:** August 03, 2020, 06:40:07 PM »

Who can?

Robert99 · « **Reply #3163 on:** August 03, 2020, 07:11:42 PM »

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Quote
the 19 redactions in the Seattle ATC transcripts were intended to remove any possibility of determining the exact location of the airliner in the Portland area.

Basically, you are saying the exact locations are known by the FBI but they went ahead and looked in the wrong location?

No. But I am sure that the Seattle ATC transcripts, with the embedded GMT times, could pinpoint the jump location much better than anything else.

As I have said before, I think the FBI was ill served by whoever the "experts" (with the FBI it always has to be an "expert") were that worked on this with them. Maybe the FBI agents just flipped a coin and said we are going with this/that scenario.

And frankly, I don't see any particular reason for the Flight Data Recorder being of any great use in determining the flight path. It should be remembered that the FBI apparently didn't talk to the flight crew members after their interviews in Reno. Maybe if they had, Captain Scott would not have found it necessary to claim that the FBI flight path was wrong as I understand he did.

Shutter · « **Reply #3164 on:** August 03, 2020, 07:15:02 PM »

Who would do this and make Paul and the Air Force come to false conclusions? how would the Air Force skip over the obvious, or Paul saying "something is wrong here" ? who got the transcripts first and what would the FBI even know about them if they got them first?

Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues (Read 983878 times)

georger

Re: Flight Path And Related Issues

Chaucer

Re: Flight Path And Related Issues

EU

Re: Flight Path And Related Issues

Chaucer

Re: Flight Path And Related Issues

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Flight Path And Related Issues

Shutter

Re: Flight Path And Related Issues

georger

Re: Flight Path And Related Issues

Robert99

Re: Flight Path And Related Issues

Shutter

Re: Flight Path And Related Issues

Shutter

Re: Flight Path And Related Issues

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Flight Path And Related Issues

Chaucer

Re: Flight Path And Related Issues

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Flight Path And Related Issues

Robert99

Re: Flight Path And Related Issues

Shutter

Re: Flight Path And Related Issues