Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 983855 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3120 on: August 02, 2020, 05:13:06 PM »
When exactly did the flight path change? I know several dropzone maps were made..I see a lot of discounting and yet some you use that material?

confusing...
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3121 on: August 02, 2020, 05:15:48 PM »
Fly, the first document you posted is the subject of the chase planes making the maneuvers and not 305..I thought the same.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3122 on: August 02, 2020, 05:18:46 PM »
Not playing games. Just discussing the case.

I agree that those are the facts as you state them. I see nothing there that eliminates a central flight path.

I also disagree with your assessment that “someone F’d up”. While human error is possible, when you consider the real, tangible threat of a Soviet attack and the assortment of radar and radio tracking in that area and the acuteness of that particularly skyjacking, I think the possibility of someone “Fing up” is extremely low.”  Those were highly trained military radar man. Screwing up could mean the lives of millions of Americans. Those guys didn’t “screw up” on the regular.

Now. I do not know if the FBI flight path math is exactly right. It’s written in pencil lol

But in general I think the airliner followed that general direction and did not veer to the west and over Tena Bar. My guess is that a much more detailed and much more accurate route map exists.

Georger - If I thought Tom Kaye would actually correspond with me, I might try, but my guess is that his inbox is filled with DBC questions and he deletes the ones who’s names he doesn’t recognize.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3123 on: August 02, 2020, 05:20:39 PM »
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Robert99 and others,

What physical, contemporaneous evidence is there that indicates a western flight path? So far all I’ve heard is anecdotal evidence decades after the fact.

Also, I’m not familiar with everyone’s pet theories, but some of you seem to suggest it involves government conspiracies and cover ups. That strikes me as a convenient “deus ex machine” when the evidence trail runs out.

My Dear Chaucer,

If you elect to ignore all the evidence, then all possibilities are on the table!

And if Billy Shakespeare didn't say that, then I did.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3124 on: August 02, 2020, 05:20:53 PM »
What I say over and over would be how easy it would be for the crew to say they flew a straight line down to Portland. they had to see the map.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3125 on: August 02, 2020, 05:27:06 PM »
Traffic controllers I spoke with said it was very hard to pinpoint weather in one area. we have documentation from chase planes giving ground locations, radar operators as well. lots of things get discounted bad screens, Portland wasn't part of it etc. etc. and yet you say they avoided Portland because of the bomb? why wouldn't Portland track the plane...
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3126 on: August 02, 2020, 05:29:55 PM »
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But one thing is certain.  No airliner would fly a route like that under those circumstances.
Why? And weren’t you the one who told me to be careful of talking in absolutes?

Quote
Lastly, the FBI flight path doesn't pass the smell test.  It simply does not make sense
Why not? Again, gut feelings and “smell tests” aren’t evidence.

My point is that the only reason you and others push for a western flight path is to explain the Tena Bar find. But when you examine the money, you realize that dropping out of the air isn’t sufficient. It requires the money to be in the water.

My explanation accounts for all aspects of the case without resorting to dramatic departures from the known facts of the case.

Chaucer, the whole point is to explain how the money got to Tina Bar (the sign on the gate is T-I-N-A).  The Western Flight Path does NOT require that the money land in the water.  I suggest you check out the discredited Washougal washdown theory and make some effort to explain how the money ended up above the nominal water line at Tina Bar.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3127 on: August 02, 2020, 05:34:36 PM »
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Agreed, georger.

Again, the question is not the path of the plane, but where the plane was when DBC jumped. I believe it was closer to the Columbia than believed, and the fact that over the years the drop zone has consistently moved south underscores that.

Actually, the question is the flight path of the airliner.  It is a safe assumption that Cooper jumped somewhere along that flight path.  Cooper couldn't jump from the airliner somewhere that wasn't on its flight path.  If all else fails, try some logical assumptions.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 06:07:04 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3128 on: August 02, 2020, 05:39:29 PM »
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The Ammerman story is getting somewhat twisted. Here is what he conveyed to me on multiple occasions, including when I met with him in-person:

1) 305 appeared to stay within V-23.

2) Given the location of the radar source (Salem) and the size of the depicted target on his screen, 305 could be located anywhere on the target display which involves several miles from one side to the other. Therefore, even though a portion of the target may be within V-23, in reality the jet could be on the left side of the target and therefore a handful of miles outside of V-23 proper.

3) The trailing T-33 was given one heading as it followed 305, thereby indicating that it did not need to make the erratic turns that the FBI Flight Path depicts...which suggests that 305 flew a straight line and not all over the place as if GEORGER were behind the wheel.

4) That said, if 305 did turn left, then right, then left again as shown on the FBI Flight Path map, he (Ammerman) wouldn't necessarily notice such activity on his screen---the resolution was not of a necessary high quality.

OK - #1 seems secure and agrees with what A told me several years before your interview.

#2 EU has previously posted: "Ammerman stated that the T-33 pulled in behind 305 NNW of PDX. Therefore, 305 was never north or east of PDX."
The previous Ammerman testimony is that he brought the T33 and 305 together south of Portland near Lake Oswego. This was shared with the whole Cooper community along with graphics and people discussed it. I seem to recall the T33 pilot was also interviewed ?

Keep in mind the T33 launched from the Natl Guard base at PDX then flew north and turned south .... and was brought in behind 305 near Lake Oswego by Ammerman personally, according to Ammerman's prior testimony. ? In order to achieve this intersection Ammerman had to talk to the T33 pilot on a military frequency (a separate radio) and that was the period, according to Ammerman, when he turned away from his screen briefly during which time 305 had made his turn to the south 'just' on the west side of Portland ... Ammerman looked back at his screen to get 305's current position and THAT is when Ammerman gave the T33 instructions for a rendezvous with 305, which happened near Lake Oswego south of Portland. This sequence of events has been posted and talk about for years, based on Ammerman's own description of events .  Now this all changes with your interview for some reason!      This is a wholesale revision of the facts previously given by Ammerman, according to you, EU. 

It's my understanding the T33 was launched from PDX. It was not already in the air waiting when 305 was approaching PDX.  Ammerman was very specific! Ammerman had to set up a rendezvous between T33 and 305 and that could only happen after 305 turned south. 305 was never north in the T33's intercept sector to make an intercept NORTH of Portland happen! By the time Ammerman wads done talking to the T33 pilot and looked back at his screen to set up a rendevois, 305 had turned south ... which now made an intercept of 305 by the T33 possible. 305 was never NNW of Portland to have a rendezvous with, as Mr. Ulis describes it!

Georger, the T-33 took off from PIA and headed WEST on a training mission.  It was headed to a practice area (the location of which is never stated) or maybe to the Pacific Ocean.

The Malay Intersecton on V-23 is North Northwest (NNW) of Portland and that means the airliner was NNW of Portland as it approached Portland.  Nothing supports the idea that the airliner was east of Portland.

It appears that everything Ammerman told EU and Bruce Smith supports the Western Flight Path.

The T33 training mission was cancelled! The T33 was never near Malay. Malay has nothing to do with this. The T33 Instructor-Pilot Norman Battaglia was interviewed and a synopsis of his mission intercepting 305 was published - as you very well know! More fun and games from R99 I see.

The T33 most certainly did not intercept 305 anywhere near Malay, if that is what you are trying to claim!

More later.

Thank G, do you know if the interview is anywhere online?

Im told Galen Cook has a copy of Tosaw's interview of Battaglia. Tosaw covers Battaglia in his book referenced by Snowmman in 2009 ... see:
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Ammerman's report to me matches Tosaw's Battaglia report including turning Battaglia toward Lake Oswego for an intercept with 305 near Lake Oswego ... SOUTH of Portland not NNW of Portland as per R99 and EU.

Snow posts in 2008:

"    snowmman

August 1, 2008

we're correct on all the previous F-106 detail. that's as stated on Sluggo's site. (377: I mentioned before how apparently the F-106 were pretty bad at downward radar in a cluttered terrain scenario. Do you know any more about that? And no doppler radar? I took that all to mean that any F-106 painting of 305 was pretty poor)

The F-102's were additionally dispatched from Idaho Air National Guard, from Boise. But they didn't make contact.

The T33 trainer jet was diverted to follow.

Details from the T33. Note that Lake Oswego is south of Portland, so all their info doesn't help, since it was after the jump.

Norman Battaglia was going to Portland Air Base for a night training mission, about 5:30 pm. He and pilot Dick Perry went thru their pre-flight, took off around 7:50. Battaglia was Air National Guard officer, in back seat as instructor-pilot.

Shortly after they were airborne, they were told to switch radio to Seattle Center, and Seattle told them to trail 305....

They turned toward Lake Oswego, putting them about 3 miles behind 305. They made radar contact and noted 305 was changing course 45 degrees every 30 seconds. He had to throttle back to 135 knots and fly with landing gear and flaps down to maintain contact.

Near Eugene they were told to break contact, go to Kingsley Field in Klamath Falls.

They say they never saw the 727. At one point they were about 3/4 mile away.

    Quote


Snow and others also posted about Battaglia in the 2008/2009 period. But again, when I interviewed Ammerman about the T33/305 intercept Ammerman's account was the same as Battaglia's account, to the letter.

I would suggest that DB and others read post #3108 above.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3129 on: August 02, 2020, 05:44:33 PM »
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Quote
But one thing is certain.  No airliner would fly a route like that under those circumstances.
Why? And weren’t you the one who told me to be careful of talking in absolutes?

Quote
Lastly, the FBI flight path doesn't pass the smell test.  It simply does not make sense
Why not? Again, gut feelings and “smell tests” aren’t evidence.

My point is that the only reason you and others push for a western flight path is to explain the Tena Bar find. But when you examine the money, you realize that dropping out of the air isn’t sufficient. It requires the money to be in the water.

My explanation accounts for all aspects of the case without resorting to dramatic departures from the known facts of the case.

The "smell test" reveals that the FBI flight path is so weird that it indicates the airliner would not fly something like that in the first place.  I would just love to see your explanation of the time problems mentioned above.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 06:00:47 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3130 on: August 02, 2020, 05:52:48 PM »
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Robert99 and others,

What physical, contemporaneous evidence is there that indicates a western flight path? So far all I’ve heard is anecdotal evidence decades after the fact.

Also, I’m not familiar with everyone’s pet theories, but some of you seem to suggest it involves government conspiracies and cover ups. That strikes me as a convenient “deus ex machine” when the evidence trail runs out.

My Dear Chaucer,

If you elect to ignore all the evidence, then all possibilities are on the table!

I can’t ignore evidence that hasn’t been presented!  :rofl:
“Completely unhinged”
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3131 on: August 02, 2020, 05:54:19 PM »
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Not playing games. Just discussing the case.

I agree that those are the facts as you state them. I see nothing there that eliminates a central flight path.

I also disagree with your assessment that “someone F’d up”. While human error is possible, when you consider the real, tangible threat of a Soviet attack and the assortment of radar and radio tracking in that area and the acuteness of that particularly skyjacking, I think the possibility of someone “Fing up” is extremely low.”  Those were highly trained military radar man. Screwing up could mean the lives of millions of Americans. Those guys didn’t “screw up” on the regular.

Now. I do not know if the FBI flight path math is exactly right. It’s written in pencil lol

But in general I think the airliner followed that general direction and did not veer to the west and over Tena Bar. My guess is that a much more detailed and much more accurate route map exists.

Georger - If I thought Tom Kaye would actually correspond with me, I might try, but my guess is that his inbox is filled with DBC questions and he deletes the ones who’s names he doesn’t recognize.

So let's debate:

You stated, "I agree that those are the facts as you state them. I see nothing there that eliminates a central flight path."

To the contrary, the placard find and the fiberglass skirt find absolutely prove that the FBI map is incorrect at those points. That said, if they're off at these two points how can you assume they're not off at some other critical points?

Also, if you consider where the money was discovered and the conditions under which it was discovered you begin to realize that the FBI search area derived from the FBI Flight Path map simply doesn't make sense.

One other thing, I have heard the "SAGE looks for Soviet threats, therefore, tracking 305 would be easy" line several times. This is grossly misleading. Here's how:

1) How do you know that SAGE was even used to track the airliner? Is it because in an FBI file an agent who wrote a 302 said so?
2) The map was crafted from data collected after the fact (2-days). That is not the same thing as following a threat in real time.
3) If SAGE was the be-all-end-all in this case, why then did the map also require data from NWO flight ops in Minneapolis, and flight data recorder info from the airliner? Are we to assume that SAGE would require similar data from the Soviets to track an encroachment into US territory from them?
4) We know for a fact that the SAGE component related to directing the F-106s to 305 was not working that night--this was quite common.





« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 05:55:46 PM by EU »
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3132 on: August 02, 2020, 05:59:46 PM »
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Robert99 and others,

What physical, contemporaneous evidence is there that indicates a western flight path? So far all I’ve heard is anecdotal evidence decades after the fact.

Also, I’m not familiar with everyone’s pet theories, but some of you seem to suggest it involves government conspiracies and cover ups. That strikes me as a convenient “deus ex machine” when the evidence trail runs out.

My Dear Chaucer,

If you elect to ignore all the evidence, then all possibilities are on the table!

I can’t ignore evidence that hasn’t been presented!  :rofl:

While I do appreciate your efforts at humor, honestly I do, you are saying that you haven't read anything that has been posted here or on DropZone for the past 10 years.  Happy are those fellows who chose to remain clueless, but it is their choice. 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3133 on: August 02, 2020, 06:56:25 PM »
I find it interesting, similar to suspects discrediting evidence. by the time the excuses are done it's amazing planes stayed in the sky and not crashing into one another. fuzzy or unclear screens,useless FDR's, radar operator's not paying attention in Portland.

1) Documentation surrounding area's close the the map made by the Air Force
2) Documents surround wind were also in the files..
3) Ground locations given by radar operator's..
4) Documents show the SAGE was used..they had both radar's.
5) Chase plane documentation..
6) The SAGE was used 24/7. every commercial airliner/private had to be tagged 24/7. the SAGE had to run constantly as protection. probably was a good exercise/drill for them. they had to know what was in the sky 24/7...
7) Weather changes also documented, wind changes..

We have a lot of people involved in the path. it's a lot harder to discredit many vs discrediting one person making the whole thing. I get a little confused when someone says there is nothing to support the path? regardless to the multiple answers the crew has given. not one spoke of flying a straight line....no radar reports it, the FDR doesn't support it..chase planes don't mention a straight line etc...?

If he did get away clean. what would be found in the path. not a lot of evidence to cover to begin with?
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3134 on: August 02, 2020, 07:42:54 PM »
I'll just throw this out there:

I am willing to debate anyone--I mean anyone--concerning the validity of the FBI Flight Path versus the Western Flight Path on The Cooper Vortex.

I believe Darren would welcome this type of back-and-forth on his show. Moreover, it's very difficult to get much substantive across--and to counter-argue a point--in a web forum setting. On the other hand, a podcast affords both sides the opportunity to make points and counter-points in real-time and in a conversational manner.

So, again, as an advocate of the Western Flight Path, I welcome the opportunity to debate this matter on Darren's podcast (assuming he's willing to grant us the time) in a respectful and substantive manner so that others can listen and decide for themselves what sounds plausible and likely.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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