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The Ammerman story is getting somewhat twisted. Here is what he conveyed to me on multiple occasions, including when I met with him in-person:

1) 305 appeared to stay within V-23.

2) Given the location of the radar source (Salem) and the size of the depicted target on his screen, 305 could be located anywhere on the target display which involves several miles from one side to the other. Therefore, even though a portion of the target may be within V-23, in reality the jet could be on the left side of the target and therefore a handful of miles outside of V-23 proper.

3) The trailing T-33 was given one heading as it followed 305, thereby indicating that it did not need to make the erratic turns that the FBI Flight Path depicts...which suggests that 305 flew a straight line and not all over the place as if GEORGER were behind the wheel.

4) That said, if 305 did turn left, then right, then left again as shown on the FBI Flight Path map, he (Ammerman) wouldn't necessarily notice such activity on his screen---the resolution was not of a necessary high quality.

OK - #1 seems secure and agrees with what A told me several years before your interview.

#2 EU has previously posted: "Ammerman stated that the T-33 pulled in behind 305 NNW of PDX. Therefore, 305 was never north or east of PDX."
The previous Ammerman testimony is that he brought the T33 and 305 together south of Portland near Lake Oswego. This was shared with the whole Cooper community along with graphics and people discussed it. I seem to recall the T33 pilot was also interviewed ?

Keep in mind the T33 launched from the Natl Guard base at PDX then flew north and turned south .... and was brought in behind 305 near Lake Oswego by Ammerman personally, according to Ammerman's prior testimony. ? In order to achieve this intersection Ammerman had to talk to the T33 pilot on a military frequency (a separate radio) and that was the period, according to Ammerman, when he turned away from his screen briefly during which time 305 had made his turn to the south 'just' on the west side of Portland ... Ammerman looked back at his screen to get 305's current position and THAT is when Ammerman gave the T33 instructions for a rendezvous with 305, which happened near Lake Oswego south of Portland. This sequence of events has been posted and talk about for years, based on Ammerman's own description of events .  Now this all changes with your interview for some reason!      This is a wholesale revision of the facts previously given by Ammerman, according to you, EU. 

It's my understanding the T33 was launched from PDX. It was not already in the air waiting when 305 was approaching PDX.  Ammerman was very specific! Ammerman had to set up a rendezvous between T33 and 305 and that could only happen after 305 turned south. 305 was never north in the T33's intercept sector to make an intercept NORTH of Portland happen! By the time Ammerman wads done talking to the T33 pilot and looked back at his screen to set up a rendevois, 305 had turned south ... which now made an intercept of 305 by the T33 possible. 305 was never NNW of Portland to have a rendezvous with, as Mr. Ulis describes it!

Georger, the T-33 took off from PIA and headed WEST on a training mission.  It was headed to a practice area (the location of which is never stated) or maybe to the Pacific Ocean.

The Malay Intersecton on V-23 is North Northwest (NNW) of Portland and that means the airliner was NNW of Portland as it approached Portland.  Nothing supports the idea that the airliner was east of Portland.

It appears that everything Ammerman told EU and Bruce Smith supports the Western Flight Path.

The T33 training mission was cancelled! The T33 was never near Malay. Malay has nothing to do with this. The T33 Instructor-Pilot Norman Battaglia was interviewed and a synopsis of his mission intercepting 305 was published - as you very well know! More fun and games from R99 I see.

The T33 most certainly did not intercept 305 anywhere near Malay, if that is what you are trying to claim!

More later.

Thank G, do you know if the interview is anywhere online?

Robert99 and others,

What physical, contemporaneous evidence is there that indicates a western flight path? So far all I’ve heard is anecdotal evidence decades after the fact.

Also, I’m not familiar with everyone’s pet theories, but some of you seem to suggest it involves government conspiracies and cover ups. That strikes me as a convenient “deus ex machine” when the evidence trail runs out.

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The Ammerman story is getting somewhat twisted. Here is what he conveyed to me on multiple occasions, including when I met with him in-person:

1) 305 appeared to stay within V-23.

2) Given the location of the radar source (Salem) and the size of the depicted target on his screen, 305 could be located anywhere on the target display which involves several miles from one side to the other. Therefore, even though a portion of the target may be within V-23, in reality the jet could be on the left side of the target and therefore a handful of miles outside of V-23 proper.

3) The trailing T-33 was given one heading as it followed 305, thereby indicating that it did not need to make the erratic turns that the FBI Flight Path depicts...which suggests that 305 flew a straight line and not all over the place as if GEORGER were behind the wheel.

4) That said, if 305 did turn left, then right, then left again as shown on the FBI Flight Path map, he (Ammerman) wouldn't necessarily notice such activity on his screen---the resolution was not of a necessary high quality.

OK - #1 seems secure and agrees with what A told me several years before your interview.

#2 EU has previously posted: "Ammerman stated that the T-33 pulled in behind 305 NNW of PDX. Therefore, 305 was never north or east of PDX."
The previous Ammerman testimony is that he brought the T33 and 305 together south of Portland near Lake Oswego. This was shared with the whole Cooper community along with graphics and people discussed it. I seem to recall the T33 pilot was also interviewed ?

Keep in mind the T33 launched from the Natl Guard base at PDX then flew north and turned south .... and was brought in behind 305 near Lake Oswego by Ammerman personally, according to Ammerman's prior testimony. ? In order to achieve this intersection Ammerman had to talk to the T33 pilot on a military frequency (a separate radio) and that was the period, according to Ammerman, when he turned away from his screen briefly during which time 305 had made his turn to the south 'just' on the west side of Portland ... Ammerman looked back at his screen to get 305's current position and THAT is when Ammerman gave the T33 instructions for a rendezvous with 305, which happened near Lake Oswego south of Portland. This sequence of events has been posted and talk about for years, based on Ammerman's own description of events .  Now this all changes with your interview for some reason!      This is a wholesale revision of the facts previously given by Ammerman, according to you, EU. 

It's my understanding the T33 was launched from PDX. It was not already in the air waiting when 305 was approaching PDX.  Ammerman was very specific! Ammerman had to set up a rendezvous between T33 and 305 and that could only happen after 305 turned south. 305 was never north in the T33's intercept sector to make an intercept NORTH of Portland happen! By the time Ammerman wads done talking to the T33 pilot and looked back at his screen to set up a rendevois, 305 had turned south ... which now made an intercept of 305 by the T33 possible. 305 was never NNW of Portland to have a rendezvous with, as Mr. Ulis describes it!

Georger, the T-33 took off from PIA and headed WEST on a training mission.  It was headed to a practice area (the location of which is never stated) or maybe to the Pacific Ocean.

The Malay Intersecton on V-23 is North Northwest (NNW) of Portland and that means the airliner was NNW of Portland as it approached Portland.  Nothing supports the idea that the airliner was east of Portland.

It appears that everything Ammerman told EU and Bruce Smith supports the Western Flight Path.

The T33 training mission was cancelled! The T33 was never near Malay. Malay has nothing to do with this. The T33 Instructor-Pilot Norman Battaglia was interviewed and a synopsis of his mission intercepting 305 was published - as you very well know! More fun and games from R99 I see.

The T33 most certainly did not intercept 305 anywhere near Malay, if that is what you are trying to claim!

More later.

Thank G, do you know if the interview is anywhere online?

Im told Galen Cook has a copy of Tosaw's interview of Battaglia. Tosaw covers Battaglia in his book referenced by Snowmman in 2009 ... see:
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Ammerman's report to me matches Tosaw's Battaglia report including turning Battaglia toward Lake Oswego for an intercept with 305 near Lake Oswego ... SOUTH of Portland not NNW of Portland as per R99 and EU.

Snow posts in 2008:

"    snowmman

August 1, 2008

we're correct on all the previous F-106 detail. that's as stated on Sluggo's site. (377: I mentioned before how apparently the F-106 were pretty bad at downward radar in a cluttered terrain scenario. Do you know any more about that? And no doppler radar? I took that all to mean that any F-106 painting of 305 was pretty poor)

The F-102's were additionally dispatched from Idaho Air National Guard, from Boise. But they didn't make contact.

The T33 trainer jet was diverted to follow.

Details from the T33. Note that Lake Oswego is south of Portland, so all their info doesn't help, since it was after the jump.

Norman Battaglia was going to Portland Air Base for a night training mission, about 5:30 pm. He and pilot Dick Perry went thru their pre-flight, took off around 7:50. Battaglia was Air National Guard officer, in back seat as instructor-pilot.

Shortly after they were airborne, they were told to switch radio to Seattle Center, and Seattle told them to trail 305....

They turned toward Lake Oswego, putting them about 3 miles behind 305. They made radar contact and noted 305 was changing course 45 degrees every 30 seconds. He had to throttle back to 135 knots and fly with landing gear and flaps down to maintain contact.

Near Eugene they were told to break contact, go to Kingsley Field in Klamath Falls.

They say they never saw the 727. At one point they were about 3/4 mile away.

    Quote


Snow and others also posted about Battaglia in the 2008/2009 period. But again, when I interviewed Ammerman about the T33/305 intercept Ammerman's account was the same as Battaglia's account, to the letter. 

But one thing is certain.  No airliner would fly a route like that under those circumstances.

Why? And weren’t you the one who told me to be careful of talking in absolutes?

Lastly, the FBI flight path doesn't pass the smell test.  It simply does not make sense

Why not? Again, gut feelings and “smell tests” aren’t evidence.

My point is that the only reason you and others push for a western flight path is to explain the Tena Bar find. But when you examine the money, you realize that dropping out of the air isn’t sufficient. It requires the money to be in the water.

My explanation accounts for all aspects of the case without resorting to dramatic departures from the known facts of the case.

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Robert99 and others,

What physical, contemporaneous evidence is there that indicates a western flight path? So far all I’ve heard is anecdotal evidence decades after the fact.

Also, I’m not familiar with everyone’s pet theories, but some of you seem to suggest it involves government conspiracies and cover ups. That strikes me as a convenient “deus ex machine” when the evidence trail runs out.

Chaucer, if all you have heard is "anecdotal evidence" then you must have missed the posts above, and elsewhere, by EU, Bruce Smith, and others including myself.  In fact, I think you and I have been through this at least one or more times already.

Your acceptance at face value of the so-called "FBI Map" needs to be reconsidered.  First, I believe it was FBI agent Larry Carr who posted that map on DropZone and asked if anyone knew where it came from.  There is no proof that the FBI generated that map or that it came from the USAF.

The radar facility at McChord AFB was probably a joint operation between the DOD and the FAA.  It was probably manned by military personnel, civilian employees of DOD, and civilian employees of the FAA.

There is information online somewhere, and probably in 302s as well, that describes McChord AFB military personnel giving radar data and maps to what were apparently FBI agents.  There is also information online stating that apparently the same information was sent to the NWA headquarters in Minneapolis. 

Consequently, the so-called "FBI map" could be the work of DOD personnel, FBI agents, NWA personnel, all of the above, none of the above, little green men from Mars, or maybe some lunatic in a nut house.  Who knows?  But one thing is certain.  No airliner would fly a route like that under those circumstances.

To point out a very simple and easy to see problem with the "FBI Map", at one time the airliner had a constant ground speed of approximately 180 Knots (Nautical Miles Per Hour) and the map indicates it flew 3 Nautical Miles in one minute and 6 Nautical miles in the very next minute.  Would you care to attempt an explanation as to how that could have happened?  Other such oddities exist.

Lastly, the FBI flight path doesn't pass the smell test.  It simply does not make sense.

Quote

But one thing is certain.  No airliner would fly a route like that under those circumstances.

Why? And weren’t you the one who told me to be careful of talking in absolutes?

Quote

Lastly, the FBI flight path doesn't pass the smell test.  It simply does not make sense

Why not? Again, gut feelings and “smell tests” aren’t evidence.

My point is that the only reason you and others push for a western flight path is to explain the Tena Bar find. But when you examine the money, you realize that dropping out of the air isn’t sufficient. It requires the money to be in the water.

My explanation accounts for all aspects of the case without resorting to dramatic departures from the known facts of the case.

My point is that the only reason you and others push for a western flight path is to explain the Tena Bar find. But when you examine the money, you realize that dropping out of the air isn’t sufficient. It requires the money to be in the water.

Correct. R99's west path has always been motivated by an attempt to supply a "Direct causal" connection between the money and a flight path! But if it didn't happen that way factually, the whole project is subterfuge.

I have said a million times that if lab tests had been run to determine "when" the money was buried at Tina Bar or under water somewhere (ie. removed from radioactive exposure in the atmosphere) ... we wouldn't even be talking about a west path.

No plane flew over Tina Bar and dropped Cooper money on to Tina Bar! As per R99.     

 * BTW none of this is personal. This is merely an attempt to get to the truth. 

Agreed, georger.

Again, the question is not the path of the plane, but where the plane was when DBC jumped. I believe it was closer to the Columbia than believed, and the fact that over the years the drop zone has consistently moved south underscores that.

That is exactly what Carr and Sluggo thought -  drop zone has consistently moved south underscores that. Dont forget that Himmelsbach was forced to move it south also. In fact he called a press conference in '75 and said  'we estimate the new jump time moves Cooper's jump to about ten miles north of Portland', but true to form nobody bothered to specify where on an east-west line!   

Here's some new information. At the time I interviewed Ammerman I was also working with a retired USAF pilot Lt Col BD, who found and interviewed several survivors of the old TAG team that had conducted the 305 test flight and analysis ... After I passed my first interview of Ammerman to BD, BD wrote back and said:


"The flight path coordinates were calculated from data tape recorded at the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Center (DC).  The calculation and the plotting were almost certainly done by the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES).   It was their job to do such analyses, and the DC were just users of the system. It was all in a day's work for them.

The detachment is still there.  They might still have the source data or a listing of coordinates for intermediate times, or they may have transferred it to their headquarters (at Hill AFB if I remember right). The FAA should have a copy. If a copy was ever given to the FBI then they have a copy. "

BD goes on to say: 

"R99 misses something extremely important regarding the FBI flight path plot because he is oblivious to how it came about.   The data was hand plotted, probably by the same people who computed the coordinates.  That group did this kind of thing probably once a week, sometimes for incidents but mostly for system QA and change evaluations.  Their usual method was to calculate coordinates using taped data from a system that tracked probably hundreds of flights per day just in the Washington-Oregon area alone.  They tracked every commercial flight.  Every flight with a transponder. Basically everything except small private planes at low altitudes.  Plus, every radar involved in this tracking was also constantly tracking its own calibration target.

The flightpath was produced by experts.  Within the limits of its precision, it is right. Unfortunately, the precision is only one minute of latitude and longitude. And, the times associated with the plotted points may be off by a minute. AND, it appears we don't know accurately WHEN Coop jumped due to the pilot not calling it in, except that the NWA and USAF people who did the '72 search zone map thought (with benefit of the "pressure bump" signature on the flight data recorder) that he jumped at about 19 seconds before 8:11. That could off off by a minute or two and everyone realized that.

PS:  Your interviews with Cliff are good. I think he did a commendable job given everything going on at the time. He's a funny guy and I like him very much. I believe his notation about 305 staying within V23 is entirely accurate. I am sure the people with an agenda will try to get some concession from him. 

The T33 intercept north of the river is crucial in two aspects. Cliff confirms 305 did not leave V23 in the period he was talking to our T33. It also confirms the angle of descent of 305 from BTG. Those two facts alone confirm Cliff was keeping 305 within V23. There is no chance 305 passed over the Fazio property where the money was found. The timeline and when the oscillations and bump were actually called in and to whom, is key.   
____________________ Lt Col USAF retired. "

Where would Cooper need to jump for him to splash down at terminal velocity in the Columbia? My calculations indicate about a quarter mile north of the river bank.

What about for a successful chute deployment, but he landed in the river?

I love it!

Maybe you and Tom should talk? Tom keeps saying the money was 'buried at Tina Bar' in 1971  -  I cant even image how. I think Smith's reprise of Tom's story being shown FBI data is quite good and hopefully true. Maybe you and Tom need go compare notes/ideas ?

Maybe Tom can help move the DZ south by recalling data he has actually seen or has? It's worth a conversation with Tom. That's my thought...

Thanks.   

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Robert99 and others,

What physical, contemporaneous evidence is there that indicates a western flight path? So far all I’ve heard is anecdotal evidence decades after the fact.

Also, I’m not familiar with everyone’s pet theories, but some of you seem to suggest it involves government conspiracies and cover ups. That strikes me as a convenient “deus ex machine” when the evidence trail runs out.

Chaucer, if all you have heard is "anecdotal evidence" then you must have missed the posts above, and elsewhere, by EU, Bruce Smith, and others including myself.  In fact, I think you and I have been through this at least one or more times already.

Your acceptance at face value of the so-called "FBI Map" needs to be reconsidered.  First, I believe it was FBI agent Larry Carr who posted that map on DropZone and asked if anyone knew where it came from.  There is no proof that the FBI generated that map or that it came from the USAF.

The radar facility at McChord AFB was probably a joint operation between the DOD and the FAA.  It was probably manned by military personnel, civilian employees of DOD, and civilian employees of the FAA.

There is information online somewhere, and probably in 302s as well, that describes McChord AFB military personnel giving radar data and maps to what were apparently FBI agents.  There is also information online stating that apparently the same information was sent to the NWA headquarters in Minneapolis. 

Consequently, the so-called "FBI map" could be the work of DOD personnel, FBI agents, NWA personnel, all of the above, none of the above, little green men from Mars, or maybe some lunatic in a nut house.  Who knows?  But one thing is certain.  No airliner would fly a route like that under those circumstances.

To point out a very simple and easy to see problem with the "FBI Map", at one time the airliner had a constant ground speed of approximately 180 Knots (Nautical Miles Per Hour) and the map indicates it flew 3 Nautical Miles in one minute and 6 Nautical miles in the very next minute.  Would you care to attempt an explanation as to how that could have happened?  Other such oddities exist.

Lastly, the FBI flight path doesn't pass the smell test.  It simply does not make sense.

This is flat-out bs.

We have the history of who and what the evolution of the socalled FBI Flight Path is. Which by the way you contributed damned near nothing to! Others did the heavy lifting. You have been nothing more than a spectator during this whole affair eventually generating your own socalled WEST PATH which Sluggo allowed you to post on his site!

See the attached! 

Georger, other than your love for posting baloney to support your own theory, whatever it may be, there are other 302s and information that discuss how the data from McChord got TO NWA Minneapolis in the first place.  The 302 you posted describes information coming FROM Minneapolis.  And what was the basis for the initial jump location prediction and what was the time/date it was made?

And just exactly how did the "FBI Flight Path" evolve?  While the jump location has evolved, I don't remember seeing anything about the flight path evolving.

How is your book coming along?