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Georger - I agree completely re: where and when DBC jumped. We can all agree that the plane was somewhere between Tena Bar and the Washougal from west to east. The question is where along the north-south axis did he jump? Was it the original latitude near Lake Merwin? Or one further south near the Columbia? If he landed on ground then the money find becomes more perplexing. If he jumped near the Columbia then it becomes easier to understand.

R99 - I guess we will have to disagree with the DMEs. I agree with you on all other points you mentioned re: radar.

Chaucer, why do we disagree about the DMEs.  All three are on V-23.

My understanding is that there were two DMEs. One for Seattle and one for PDX (Battle Ground). What was the third?

My point is that using the DMEs you can know the speed, altitude, and distance traveled between those two points. Using that calculation, the western flight path is eliminated because it’s impossible to get from Seattle to Battle Ground in that amount of time if you detour around Portland to the west.
 
I can elaborate on this if you’d like.

Please elaborate.  But first let's discuss DMEs a bit.

The airliner's navigational equipment consisted of two VOR receivers, two DME receivers, and two ADF receivers.  In the low VHF frequency range (check the FAA literature if you are interested in the actual frequencies)
several frequencies were dedicated to navigational frequencies and the communication frequencies were just above that.  The VOR, DME, GS, and Localizer frequencies were paired and all the pilot had to do was tune to the VOR frequency and the other instruments were automatically tuned in if the appropriate instruments were installed.  All VOR frequencies on V-23 also included DME equipment.

DME receiver equipment was install on the airliner.  Consequently, the ARINC teletype print outs list three instances of where the location of the airliner is stated using DME read outs.  At 7:42 PM PST, the airliner crew stated that they were "Out SEA 14 miles on V-23 out SEA."  Translated from the Greek, this means that they were 14 DME miles (or Nautical Miles) south of the SEA VORTAC on V-23.  The SEA VORTAC was located between the south ends of the parallel runways on the SEATAC airport and the airliner passed within about 1000 feet of that station as it was taking off.

At 7:45 PM PST, the airliner reported that it was 19 DME miles south of the SEA VORTAC and on V-23. 

At 8:22 PM PST, the airliner reported that it was 23 DME miles south of Portland.  It should be remembered that what is now known as the Battleground VORTAC was known as the Portland VORTAC at the time of the hijacking.  Other evidence indicates that the messages were transmitted by the airliner at approximately 7:40 PM, 7:43 PM, and 8:18 PM PST, respectively.

Chaucer, Eric Ulis has a book out in which the above information is discussed in greater detail.  I suggest that you get a copy of it.

The times listed above are the time on the ARINC teletype print outs.     

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Georger - I agree completely re: where and when DBC jumped. We can all agree that the plane was somewhere between Tena Bar and the Washougal from west to east. The question is where along the north-south axis did he jump? Was it the original latitude near Lake Merwin? Or one further south near the Columbia? If he landed on ground then the money find becomes more perplexing. If he jumped near the Columbia then it becomes easier to understand.

R99 - I guess we will have to disagree with the DMEs. I agree with you on all other points you mentioned re: radar.

Chaucer, why do we disagree about the DMEs.  All three are on V-23.

My understanding is that there were two DMEs. One for Seattle and one for PDX (Battle Ground). What was the third?

My point is that using the DMEs you can know the speed, altitude, and distance traveled between those two points. Using that calculation, the western flight path is eliminated because it’s impossible to get from Seattle to Battle Ground in that amount of time if you detour around Portland to the west.
 
I can elaborate on this if you’d like.

Please elaborate.  But first let's discuss DMEs a bit.

The airliner's navigational equipment consisted of two VOR receivers, two DME receivers, and two ADF receivers.  In the low VHF frequency range (check the FAA literature if you are interested in the actual frequencies)
several frequencies were dedicated to navigational frequencies and the communication frequencies were just above that.  The VOR, DME, GS, and Localizer frequencies were paired and all the pilot had to do was tune to the VOR frequency and the other instruments were automatically tuned in if the appropriate instruments were installed.  All VOR frequencies on V-23 also included DME equipment.

DME receiver equipment was install on the airliner.  Consequently, the ARINC teletype print outs list three instances of where the location of the airliner is stated using DME read outs.  At 7:42 PM PST, the airliner crew stated that they were "Out SEA 14 miles on V-23 out SEA."  Translated from the Greek, this means that they were 14 DME miles (or Nautical Miles) south of the SEA VORTAC on V-23.  The SEA VORTAC was located between the south ends of the parallel runways on the SEATAC airport and the airliner passed within about 1000 feet of that station as it was taking off.

At 7:45 PM PST, the airliner reported that it was 19 DME miles south of the SEA VORTAC and on V-23. 

At 8:22 PM PST, the airliner reported that it was 23 DME miles south of Portland.  It should be remembered that what is now known as the Battleground VORTAC was known as the Portland VORTAC at the time of the hijacking.  Other evidence indicates that the messages were transmitted by the airliner at approximately 7:40 PM, 7:43 PM, and 8:18 PM PST, respectively.

Chaucer, Eric Ulis has a book out in which the above information is discussed in greater detail.  I suggest that you get a copy of it.

The times listed above are the time on the ARINC teletype print outs.   

Where is the Ulis BOOK so anyone may see it?   

Georger, you know damn well where the Ulis book is located.  But you have previously stated that you are not going to pay a couple of bucks to buy it.  Cheap! Cheap! Cheap!  All you are looking for is free hand outs.

Ammerman

A lot is being said about what Ammerman said. But where did he say it?

A few posts above, Georger, you mentioned that Ammerman said that Flight 305 flew over Portland in the middle of V-23, or words to that effect. Where did he say that?

Ammerman was quite clear with me in my interview with him in 2019 - 305 was on the western side of V-23 and never strayed from it. However, at some point south of Woodland he put 305 and the T-33 on a vector to Eugene. That route would presumably pass Portland to the west.

Shortly, I'll be posting the flight path chapter from the 3rd Edition, as this issue is heating up. It'll include what Ammerman told me.

Ammerman

A lot is being said about what Ammerman said. But where did he say it?

A few posts above, Georger, you mentioned that Ammerman said that Flight 305 flew over Portland in the middle of V-23, or words to that effect. Where did he say that?

Ammerman was quite clear with me in my interview with him in 2019 - 305 was on the western side of V-23 and never strayed from it. However, at some point south of Woodland he put 305 and the T-33 on a vector to Eugene. That route would presumably pass Portland to the west.

I reported on this years ago .... 'right down the center line of V23 or very close to it and if off at all was slightly west of the center line' ...

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Georger - I agree completely re: where and when DBC jumped. We can all agree that the plane was somewhere between Tena Bar and the Washougal from west to east. The question is where along the north-south axis did he jump? Was it the original latitude near Lake Merwin? Or one further south near the Columbia? If he landed on ground then the money find becomes more perplexing. If he jumped near the Columbia then it becomes easier to understand.

R99 - I guess we will have to disagree with the DMEs. I agree with you on all other points you mentioned re: radar.

Chaucer, why do we disagree about the DMEs.  All three are on V-23.

My understanding is that there were two DMEs. One for Seattle and one for PDX (Battle Ground). What was the third?

My point is that using the DMEs you can know the speed, altitude, and distance traveled between those two points. Using that calculation, the western flight path is eliminated because it’s impossible to get from Seattle to Battle Ground in that amount of time if you detour around Portland to the west.
 
I can elaborate on this if you’d like.

Please elaborate.  But first let's discuss DMEs a bit.

The airliner's navigational equipment consisted of two VOR receivers, two DME receivers, and two ADF receivers.  In the low VHF frequency range (check the FAA literature if you are interested in the actual frequencies)
several frequencies were dedicated to navigational frequencies and the communication frequencies were just above that.  The VOR, DME, GS, and Localizer frequencies were paired and all the pilot had to do was tune to the VOR frequency and the other instruments were automatically tuned in if the appropriate instruments were installed.  All VOR frequencies on V-23 also included DME equipment.

DME receiver equipment was install on the airliner.  Consequently, the ARINC teletype print outs list three instances of where the location of the airliner is stated using DME read outs.  At 7:42 PM PST, the airliner crew stated that they were "Out SEA 14 miles on V-23 out SEA."  Translated from the Greek, this means that they were 14 DME miles (or Nautical Miles) south of the SEA VORTAC on V-23.  The SEA VORTAC was located between the south ends of the parallel runways on the SEATAC airport and the airliner passed within about 1000 feet of that station as it was taking off.

At 7:45 PM PST, the airliner reported that it was 19 DME miles south of the SEA VORTAC and on V-23. 

At 8:22 PM PST, the airliner reported that it was 23 DME miles south of Portland.  It should be remembered that what is now known as the Battleground VORTAC was known as the Portland VORTAC at the time of the hijacking.  Other evidence indicates that the messages were transmitted by the airliner at approximately 7:40 PM, 7:43 PM, and 8:18 PM PST, respectively.

Chaucer, Eric Ulis has a book out in which the above information is discussed in greater detail.  I suggest that you get a copy of it.

The times listed above are the time on the ARINC teletype print outs.   

Where is the Ulis BOOK so anyone may see it?   

Georger, you know damn well where the Ulis book is located.  But you have previously stated that you are not going to pay a couple of bucks to buy it.  Cheap! Cheap! Cheap!  All you are looking for is free hand outs.

Could not find any title registered to ELVIS ....... nothing at Amazon etc. My eight year old granddaughter has published ten books so far this year - a nickle 5c each. Interested? She also sells lemonaide to golfers.  Her books with drawings of golfers are very popular on the golf course. She and her brother have made $200 this year ... her 9 year old brother sells honey from his own bee hives ... which is probably more than ELVIS has made on his unknown Cooper book somewhere!

Such is life!       

Georger, stop acting like a politician.  You have known since day one that you can get a copy of the book from EU.

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Yes, R99, I know what DMEs are and how they work. Again, they do nothing to either confirm a western flight path nor eliminate a central one.

Again, I will need to see physical evidence before i believe that the federal government didn’t know exactly where that plane was at all time.

Also, the debate about the flight path is sort of moot. The real question is when Cooper jumped.

Absolutely.

I believe the real motivation for a west path is to account for the money site at Tina Bar. That was my original motivation looking for a direct connection that would account for the money find ......... but then two USGS hydrologists educated me! They think the money found by Ingram had migrated NORTH of its original location, which was somewhere south possible near the north-most dredging spoil dump site. They sited flow pressures, the usual direction debris moves when being pushed north along Tina Bar until it winds up back in the river, etc .... they say it would be common for things to migrate hundreds (if not thousands!) of yards ...things migrate NORTH in the direction of flow at Tina Bar .... and on all sand bars in this area as a universal fact.

That makes any need for a west path go away. That takes us back to the FBI path and when Cooper actually bailed on NWA's timeline.   

Agree.   The real question is when Cooper jumped.

Georger, actually the real reason for my claiming a western bypass of Portland is because that is what the facts support.

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Yes, R99, I know what DMEs are and how they work. Again, they do nothing to either confirm a western flight path nor eliminate a central one.

Again, I will need to see physical evidence before i believe that the federal government didn’t know exactly where that plane was at all time.

Also, the debate about the flight path is sort of moot. The real question is when Cooper jumped.

Chaucer, the federal government DID KNOW where the plane was at all times.  But the federal government doesn't want us to know and that is why there are 19 redactions in the Seattle Air Traffic Control transcripts.  There are no redactions in any other radio transcripts.

The real question is where Cooper jumped.  The time of his jump is known to within about a minute give or take another minute.

Your scenario requires that where Ingram found the money IS the original money deposit site, or the result of an inland scenario where drainage from some higher elevation brings the money to where Ingram found it. And you have never specified where along your west path Cooper is supposed to have bailed and landed, that brings money to the Ingram find site by some undefined drainage scenario where "water runs down hill" (your words).?

What are the 19 redactions you claim exist supposed to say, that is missing ?  Why 19 vs. 22 or 37 or 3 ?