Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 825912 times)

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #300 on: June 05, 2014, 02:26:54 AM »
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Hmmm, why, or how would they leave out the 9:00 entry, and seemingly get the figures mixed up. TAT, FF (fuel flow) etc. wasn't the transcripts type in "play by play" action, or as they were being transmitted?

They didn't leave out the 9pm (0500Z) entry OR get the figures mixed up.   THIS INFO IS NOT IN "THE TRANSCRIPTS"!
The info you're showing is not part of a TRANSCRIPT.  It is part of an incident report prepared after the incident, largely from notes (including event times) prepared by people who were listening as the events unfolded.  The temp and FF were reported and were noted, but whoever prepared the incident report didn't include the temp.  Why should they?  Do you think that temp was going to mean anything to the people (FBI) who were going to get the report?  And there was no reason to specifically state the FF because they said, instead, that it was the same as it had been.

The "transcripts" are "play by play."  This incident report is like an executive summary.

I think you are correct here. Im sorry I referred to my quote as being FROM the "Transcript", because in fact my quote I posted is from the "NWA Incident report".


I have this Word doc I use here. The doc is an assembled working doc. consisting of (1) the PI Transacript(s), (2) The NWA Incident Report, and (3) a few other documents I have. Everything is chronologically assembled, more or less as best as possible ... to get an overall "cross referenced flavor" of what was happening at some specific time.
Hom is entirely correct! This doc I use is a "bastardised" thing. But I use it so I wont have to go searching through a bunch of docs and can consult just one doc and usually find something, if I have a time (more or less)! Sorry for the confusion...


Didn't the NWA Incident report originally come from Carr via Sluggo?

 
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 02:31:59 AM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #301 on: June 05, 2014, 12:39:19 PM »
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Didn't the NWA Incident report originally come from Carr via Sluggo?

It is my understanding that the 17 page "FBI Notes" or "NWA Incident Report" was sent to Sluggo by Carr based on Sluggo's comments in the DZ thread.  This document is also included in the 99 page version of the PI document.  I believe Sluggo had all of this information posted on his web page in 2008.  The background of the PI document seems to be something of a mystery and I don't know if it originated before or after Sluggo had the information on his web page.
 

Offline hom

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #302 on: June 05, 2014, 06:03:46 PM »
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.... the 17 page "FBI Notes" or "NWA Incident Report" ..... This document is also included in the 99 page version of the PI document.

The incident report is not part of the 99 pg PI document, which is "the transcript" (entirely transcript of different categories of radio comms).  A small part of what is in the transcript is in the back of the incident report.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 06:06:46 PM by hom »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #303 on: June 05, 2014, 06:38:42 PM »
Ok, which bullshit story do we believe between the two documents.....which ones should go in the garbage? Hominid, you are the man when it comes to these documents. how about making one with the best known information in it, or can this be done?

My point being, it seems lots of people, including myself get confused with the two PDF's. we have lags in the time, differences between the two etc.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 08:21:21 PM by shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #304 on: June 06, 2014, 12:42:24 AM »
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Didn't the NWA Incident report originally come from Carr via Sluggo?

It is my understanding that the 17 page "FBI Notes" or "NWA Incident Report" was sent to Sluggo by Carr based on Sluggo's comments in the DZ thread.  This document is also included in the 99 page version of the PI document.  I believe Sluggo had all of this information posted on his web page in 2008.  The background of the PI document seems to be something of a mystery and I don't know if it originated before or after Sluggo had the information on his web page.

Take the attached photo and try to reconstruct (stack) the piles of bills into the stack found by Ingram.
(of course nobody knows what the cemented assemblage he found looked like!)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 12:44:40 AM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #305 on: June 06, 2014, 01:11:05 AM »
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Didn't the NWA Incident report originally come from Carr via Sluggo?

It is my understanding that the 17 page "FBI Notes" or "NWA Incident Report" was sent to Sluggo by Carr based on Sluggo's comments in the DZ thread.  This document is also included in the 99 page version of the PI document.  I believe Sluggo had all of this information posted on his web page in 2008.  The background of the PI document seems to be something of a mystery and I don't know if it originated before or after Sluggo had the information on his web page.

Take the attached photo and try to reconstruct (stack) the piles of bills into the stack found by Ingram.
(of course nobody knows what the cemented assemblage he found looked like!)

After getting the money back in its original order, please put Humpty Dumpty back together again for the benefit of the young pre-kindergarten kids.
 

Offline hom

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #306 on: June 06, 2014, 05:12:05 PM »
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Ok, which bullshit story do we believe between the two documents.....which ones should go in the garbage? Hominid, you are the man when it comes to these documents. how about making one with the best known information in it, or can this be done?

My point being, it seems lots of people, including myself get confused with the two PDF's. we have lags in the time, differences between the two etc.

The transcripts and the NWA incident report are just two of the few "windows" into the case.  They are each part of the "evidence" we have, mostly about what the FBI has in its case file and evidence box.  There is no one piece of the evidence that is all we need.  There would probably be little concensus on what the best known info is.

Regarding when various things happened, parts of the "transcripts" are more precise and accurate than the incident report.  Comparing things that were addressed in both reveals that things that were documented in the transcripts as occurring at different times were lumped together under single times in the report (and sometimes even out of sequence).  And when you figure out that one of the documents is an incident report prepared after the fact, rather than an event log, then you can see why the report is not a good source of timing info.  Don't use the report for accurate time, or in place of what is in the transcripts about times.

Until recently, the report was the only thing we had that addresses some of the events (Portland and south).  There was no choice but to use the report info about the events, but keeping in mind that the time info in the report is less precise (besides the fact that the report is just some NWA management saying what they thought happened).  Even at this point there is some info in the report that you can't find anywhere else.

The transcripts are themselves actually multiple documents, each with its own precision regarding time.  The Seattle center transcript is the best because it gives times down to the second.  These are probably times at which the communications began, but it doesn't matter much because these comms are generally brief.

At the bottom end of the transcripts are those for which the only times given are approximate times at the beginnings and ends of recordings.

In between, are the Oakland center transcripts and the teletype messages, which have nothing to do with ARINC as Robert claims.  With the teletype messages you have to account for the fact that everything in a message was voice over a radio before the minute after the specified minute.  That is, a message identified as 0411 was sent between 8:11:00 and 8:12:00 pst.

Recently we got a new source about what happened and when.  These are logs created by multiple NWA employees (especially 2 of them) during the hijacking.  One of them just told me that it was SOP in the company that people all over the company would make such logs, and someone would transcribe radio comms into a teletype, whenever they became aware of an "incident."  He explains the obvious, that such logs become very useful in reconstructing what happened.

Of course we must expect that there would be some human error in such data.  But the man said the employees (including himself) purposely tried to note times when the transmissions began, and said that every timepiece (including their watches) was meticulously synchronized to zulu time.  There are now multiple, fairly accurate sources of what happened and when.  Where they don't all agree, it is sometimes possible to resolve the ambiguity.

For anyone who reads this post, I'm sorry.  It's too hard to say it in a sentence.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #307 on: June 06, 2014, 07:11:22 PM »
No problem Hom, write two pages if you so desire! thanks for all the info. it's frustrating on my end. I've read them both several times, but forget which is which while quoting something. it's a difficult situation when it comes to the PDF's. it's not so hard when you are aware of the details. I'll get it stuck in my head one way, or the other.....:)
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #308 on: June 06, 2014, 07:16:40 PM »
Robert99, do you know much about the claims of the flight path east of the known path? I know Jerry Thomas is strong the path flew east. anything to toss into the conversation about this. I'd like to find everything out about the claims, all of them.
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #309 on: June 06, 2014, 07:55:18 PM »
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At the bottom end of the transcripts are those for which the only times given are approximate times at the beginnings and ends of recordings.

In between, are the Oakland center transcripts and the teletype messages, which have nothing to do with ARINC as Robert claims.  With the teletype messages you have to account for the fact that everything in a message was voice over a radio before the minute after the specified minute.  That is, a message identified as 0411 was sent between 8:11:00 and 8:12:00 pst.

HOMINID, SET UP AND PAY ATTENTION FOR A MINUTE HERE!

ARINC had EVERYTHING to do with those teletype messages and the networks over which they were transmitted.  ARINC stands for AERONAUTICAL RADIO, INCORPORATED.  It was set up to provide radio communications for the airlines that was not related to air traffic control.  If you don't know what ARINC does, then Goggle it!  The VHF radio frequency being used for the phone patch was an ARINC frequency and, again, the ARINC teletype messages were prepared from voice messages over that frequency.

As aircraft avionics and satellite capabilities have improved over the decades, voice and data transmitting capabilities have improved to the point where even engine performance parameters can be sent automatically from anywhere on the planet (if the airliner is above about 20,000 feet) to any place(s) desired.  This is the source of the information (from a European company) that is now being used in the search for the missing Malaysian airliner.

Your first sentence above is not clear.  Some of the teletypewriter printouts have the times listed both in PST and in Zulu time.  The PST is plainly labeled and the Zulu time is in the last line of the printout and is bracketed by two letters on each end.  Zulu time is 8 hours AHEAD of PST.  There is nothing complicated about this.

Your assumption that the voice message was received only a minute before the message was transmitted by teletype is not supported by facts.  For a very short message consisting of only a few words, it may be able to format it and transmit it in the same minute that is showing on the clock.  But for longer messages, a short paragraph or so and shown in some of the printouts, it may well take two or three minutes for receipt, processing, and transmitting.

Robert99 
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #310 on: June 06, 2014, 08:01:56 PM »
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Robert99, do you know much about the claims of the flight path east of the known path? I know Jerry Thomas is strong the path flew east. anything to toss into the conversation about this. I'd like to find everything out about the claims, all of them.

There is no data to support a flight path on the east side of Portland or anything that isn't on the far west side of Portland.  A flight path on the east side of Portland would have added another 10 to 15 miles of flying (about 4 or 5 minutes) and would be great enough to show up in the data.  It doesn't.

JT, like Jo and some others, needs a east side flight path to support their Washougal route or some other claim.  There is no evidence that the airliner was ever over the Washougal watershed.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #311 on: June 06, 2014, 08:14:03 PM »
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Robert99, do you know much about the claims of the flight path east of the known path? I know Jerry Thomas is strong the path flew east. anything to toss into the conversation about this. I'd like to find everything out about the claims, all of them.

There is no data to support a flight path on the east side of Portland or anything that isn't on the far west side of Portland.  A flight path on the east side of Portland would have added another 10 to 15 miles of flying (about 4 or 5 minutes) and would be great enough to show up in the data.  It doesn't.

JT, like Jo and some others, needs a east side flight path to support their Washougal route or some other claim.  There is no evidence that the airliner was ever over the Washougal watershed.

That's kind of what I thought. I'm sure a fuel issue would also X this path out. hopefully we can get to the bottom of the damn scripts.
 

Offline hom

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #312 on: June 07, 2014, 06:07:50 PM »
SIT UP AND PAY ATTENTION!
(anyone interested in learning something moderately
useful about the "Cooper" hijacking case)

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HOMINID, SET UP AND PAY ATTENTION FOR A MINUTE HERE!

ARINC had EVERYTHING to do with those teletype messages and the networks over which they were transmitted.  ARINC stands for AERONAUTICAL RADIO, INCORPORATED.  It was set up to provide radio communications for the airlines that was not related to air traffic control.  If you don't know what ARINC does, then Goggle it!  The VHF radio frequency being used for the phone patch was an ARINC frequency and, again, the ARINC teletype messages were prepared from voice messages over that frequency.

Thank you for the condescending, basic (but useless) information.  Someone who doesn't know could indeed easily find out by a web search something about "what ARINC does."  (I don't recommend Goggle.)  Someone who wants to know something actually relevant to the cooper case will have to find out what ARINC DID IN 1971 and what part of that service was actually USED BY NORTHWEST AIRLINES IN 1971.  Your last sentence above is totally wrong, as I'll explain presently.

Someone who learns more than what your simpleton "Goggle" search yielded can find out that ARINC was indeed set up to provide radio comms for the airlines.  However, it was "set up" by a group of airlines and was originally owned by that group.  When that group "set up" ARINC, they transferred their existing long-range radio comm network assets to this new corporation they had established.  Those airlines did it voluntarily.  Not all airlines participated.  NWA was not part of that group of airlines that transferred their comm networks to ARINC.

In 1971, Northwest Airlines had little need for ARINC and used ARINC very little.  The reason for this is simple.  Northwest Airlines had their own very extensive, very capable long range radio communications network.  Every time they extended their service area, since the beginnings of the airline, they would install a very good radio station at each new airport they served.  Had they ever sold off their radio network as a separate company, that company alone would have been worth probably 5%-10% as much as NWA.  NWA had its own frequency assignments from the federal government.

(I was amazed when I learned how recently NWA finally transferred its long range radio communication assets to ARINC.  It was just a handful of years before their merger into Delta.  2004 if I remember right.)

Because NWA had its own very good comm network in 1971, NWA's routine use of ARINC was pretty much limited to occasional situations in which a flight found itself somewhere in which it could not "get through" by radio but needed to communicate right away (rather than waiting until they could get through).  The flight crews trained for this even if they never ended up actually having to do it.

To use ARINC in this situation, the company had to have an account with ARINC.  The flight crew would radio the regional office of ARINC using the frequency everyone knew for that office.  They would identify themselves (e.g., "Northwest flight 305") and say they wanted a message relayed to company dispatch, flight ops or whatever (as identified in the account subscription).

The ARINC office would take the message by voice, write it out in a highly structured way using standardized abbreviations, QA it, then teletype it to whatever airline office was identified in the airline subscription.  ARINC used people very familiar with airline lingo to do all this, so the teletypes they sent out did not have the bonehead mistakes apparent throughout the teletype messages we see in the "transcripts."

For those situations in which a flight was "out of contact," NWA could also call ARINC to have ARINC contact the flight and relay a message to the flight.  And, they could arrange for ARINC to set up a "phone patch."

"Phone patch" was an ARINC service that NWA actually did use during the hijacking, but not at all as you claim.

ARINC had a lot of radio stations scattered around, like at Salem, Eugene and Medford, OR.  They also had a lot of radio frequencies assigned to them.  (The same was true of NWA.)  These assets were constantly being used for airline comms wherever the flights happened to be.  But, in any specific area, ARINC generally had some frequencies available that were not being used.

When ARINC received a call from NWA (for example) to set up a "phone patch" with a flight, ARINC would select one of its frequencies that was not being used in the area where the flight was (or was going to be) and would tell the airline to use that selected frequency.  ARINC would connect a telephone circuit to a transceiver set to the selected frequency.  The other end of the telephone circuit would be at an NWA office.

The flight 305 crew would talk into their radio (set to the assigned frequency), the transceiver nearby (like at Eugene) would receive the signal and send it out over the telephone circuit.  NWA flight ops would talk back into the telephone, the signal would travel by telephone to that transceiver, which would convert it to a radio signal that would "wing its way" up to flight 305.  A patch between radio and telephone, hence "phone patch."  No teletype.  However, this ARINC service did normally include the recording of all communication on the circuit.

When the flight eventually flew long enough to get close to the range limit of that initial radio station and its transceiver, ARINC would have to arrange to provide similar service through another radio station (at Medford, for example).  Another frequency would be available there, so ARINC would set a transceiver there to a new frequency and would patch that transceiver output into the same telephone circuit.  And ARINC would notify NWA, which would notify the flight.

Anyone with the right radio could listen to the communications.  But no flight other than 305 is going to talk on the frequency because doing so could result in ARINC terminating service for their airline.  Besides, all the airlines have a stake in being able to have such semi-dedicated service.  The phone patch was similar in function to a "dedicated" telephone line.

Back to the "phone patch" and hijack night:

When NWA found that 305 was going to be flying south of Portland, they knew they needed to arrange for comm coverage south of Portland.  This is because their own network didn't extend down there, because they had no routes down there.  So, they contacted ARINC and arranged for the phone patch south of Portland.  The patch was set up and 305 actually switched over to it even before reaching Portland.  Curious, isn't it, that the first use of the phone patch started when the teletype messages ended?

As the flight proceeded to Reno, ARINC assigned new frequencies (for different physical areas).  The logs and transcripts refer to this.  They were the frequency changes that were not associated with handoffs between controllers.  At the end, there was even chatter about ARINC needing a bit of advance notice if the flight proceeded on down to Mexico.

The logs in the "Harrison" papers also include references to communications in which someone inquired about whether or not these (phone patch) comms were being recorded, with someone answering "affirmative."

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At the bottom end of the transcripts are those for which the only times given are approximate times at the beginnings and ends of recordings.

In between, are the Oakland center transcripts and the teletype messages, which have nothing to do with ARINC as Robert claims.  With the teletype messages you have to account for the fact that everything in a message was voice over a radio before the minute after the specified minute.  That is, a message identified as 0411 was sent between 8:11:00 and 8:12:00 pst.

Your first sentence above is not clear.  Some of the teletypewriter printouts have the times listed both in PST and in Zulu time.  The PST is plainly labeled and the Zulu time is in the last line of the printout and is bracketed by two letters on each end.  Zulu time is 8 hours AHEAD of PST.  There is nothing complicated about this.
Robert99

What I was trying for in that first sentence is that some of the transcripts are at the bottom of the spectrum as far as time precision is concerned.  Nothing to do with the teletype printouts.

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Your assumption that the voice message was received only a minute before the message was transmitted by teletype is not supported by facts.  For a very short message consisting of only a few words, it may be able to format it and transmit it in the same minute that is showing on the clock.  But for longer messages, a short paragraph or so and shown in some of the printouts, it may well take two or three minutes for receipt, processing, and transmitting.

Your assumption that there was any "format it and transmit it" is not supported by facts.  The messages were sent in the minute range identified at the end of the message, regardless of when the beginning of the message was first heard.
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #313 on: June 08, 2014, 07:23:53 PM »
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SIT UP AND PAY ATTENTION!
(anyone interested in learning something moderately
useful about the "Cooper" hijacking case)

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HOMINID, SET UP AND PAY ATTENTION FOR A MINUTE HERE!

ARINC had EVERYTHING to do with those teletype messages and the networks over which they were transmitted.  ARINC stands for AERONAUTICAL RADIO, INCORPORATED.  It was set up to provide radio communications for the airlines that was not related to air traffic control.  If you don't know what ARINC does, then Goggle it!  The VHF radio frequency being used for the phone patch was an ARINC frequency and, again, the ARINC teletype messages were prepared from voice messages over that frequency.

Thank you for the condescending, basic (but useless) information.  Someone who doesn't know could indeed easily find out by a web search something about "what ARINC does."  (I don't recommend Goggle.)  Someone who wants to know something actually relevant to the cooper case will have to find out what ARINC DID IN 1971 and what part of that service was actually USED BY NORTHWEST AIRLINES IN 1971.  Your last sentence above is totally wrong, as I'll explain presently.

Someone who learns more than what your simpleton "Goggle" search yielded can find out that ARINC was indeed set up to provide radio comms for the airlines.  However, it was "set up" by a group of airlines and was originally owned by that group.  When that group "set up" ARINC, they transferred their existing long-range radio comm network assets to this new corporation they had established.  Those airlines did it voluntarily.  Not all airlines participated.  NWA was not part of that group of airlines that transferred their comm networks to ARINC.

In 1971, Northwest Airlines had little need for ARINC and used ARINC very little.  The reason for this is simple.  Northwest Airlines had their own very extensive, very capable long range radio communications network.  Every time they extended their service area, since the beginnings of the airline, they would install a very good radio station at each new airport they served.  Had they ever sold off their radio network as a separate company, that company alone would have been worth probably 5%-10% as much as NWA.  NWA had its own frequency assignments from the federal government.

(I was amazed when I learned how recently NWA finally transferred its long range radio communication assets to ARINC.  It was just a handful of years before their merger into Delta.  2004 if I remember right.)

Because NWA had its own very good comm network in 1971, NWA's routine use of ARINC was pretty much limited to occasional situations in which a flight found itself somewhere in which it could not "get through" by radio but needed to communicate right away (rather than waiting until they could get through).  The flight crews trained for this even if they never ended up actually having to do it.

To use ARINC in this situation, the company had to have an account with ARINC.  The flight crew would radio the regional office of ARINC using the frequency everyone knew for that office.  They would identify themselves (e.g., "Northwest flight 305") and say they wanted a message relayed to company dispatch, flight ops or whatever (as identified in the account subscription).

The ARINC office would take the message by voice, write it out in a highly structured way using standardized abbreviations, QA it, then teletype it to whatever airline office was identified in the airline subscription.  ARINC used people very familiar with airline lingo to do all this, so the teletypes they sent out did not have the bonehead mistakes apparent throughout the teletype messages we see in the "transcripts."

For those situations in which a flight was "out of contact," NWA could also call ARINC to have ARINC contact the flight and relay a message to the flight.  And, they could arrange for ARINC to set up a "phone patch."

"Phone patch" was an ARINC service that NWA actually did use during the hijacking, but not at all as you claim.

ARINC had a lot of radio stations scattered around, like at Salem, Eugene and Medford, OR.  They also had a lot of radio frequencies assigned to them.  (The same was true of NWA.)  These assets were constantly being used for airline comms wherever the flights happened to be.  But, in any specific area, ARINC generally had some frequencies available that were not being used.

When ARINC received a call from NWA (for example) to set up a "phone patch" with a flight, ARINC would select one of its frequencies that was not being used in the area where the flight was (or was going to be) and would tell the airline to use that selected frequency.  ARINC would connect a telephone circuit to a transceiver set to the selected frequency.  The other end of the telephone circuit would be at an NWA office.

The flight 305 crew would talk into their radio (set to the assigned frequency), the transceiver nearby (like at Eugene) would receive the signal and send it out over the telephone circuit.  NWA flight ops would talk back into the telephone, the signal would travel by telephone to that transceiver, which would convert it to a radio signal that would "wing its way" up to flight 305.  A patch between radio and telephone, hence "phone patch."  No teletype.  However, this ARINC service did normally include the recording of all communication on the circuit.

When the flight eventually flew long enough to get close to the range limit of that initial radio station and its transceiver, ARINC would have to arrange to provide similar service through another radio station (at Medford, for example).  Another frequency would be available there, so ARINC would set a transceiver there to a new frequency and would patch that transceiver output into the same telephone circuit.  And ARINC would notify NWA, which would notify the flight.

Anyone with the right radio could listen to the communications.  But no flight other than 305 is going to talk on the frequency because doing so could result in ARINC terminating service for their airline.  Besides, all the airlines have a stake in being able to have such semi-dedicated service.  The phone patch was similar in function to a "dedicated" telephone line.

Back to the "phone patch" and hijack night:

When NWA found that 305 was going to be flying south of Portland, they knew they needed to arrange for comm coverage south of Portland.  This is because their own network didn't extend down there, because they had no routes down there.  So, they contacted ARINC and arranged for the phone patch south of Portland.  The patch was set up and 305 actually switched over to it even before reaching Portland.  Curious, isn't it, that the first use of the phone patch started when the teletype messages ended?

As the flight proceeded to Reno, ARINC assigned new frequencies (for different physical areas).  The logs and transcripts refer to this.  They were the frequency changes that were not associated with handoffs between controllers.  At the end, there was even chatter about ARINC needing a bit of advance notice if the flight proceeded on down to Mexico.

The logs in the "Harrison" papers also include references to communications in which someone inquired about whether or not these (phone patch) comms were being recorded, with someone answering "affirmative."

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At the bottom end of the transcripts are those for which the only times given are approximate times at the beginnings and ends of recordings.

In between, are the Oakland center transcripts and the teletype messages, which have nothing to do with ARINC as Robert claims.  With the teletype messages you have to account for the fact that everything in a message was voice over a radio before the minute after the specified minute.  That is, a message identified as 0411 was sent between 8:11:00 and 8:12:00 pst.

Your first sentence above is not clear.  Some of the teletypewriter printouts have the times listed both in PST and in Zulu time.  The PST is plainly labeled and the Zulu time is in the last line of the printout and is bracketed by two letters on each end.  Zulu time is 8 hours AHEAD of PST.  There is nothing complicated about this.
Robert99

What I was trying for in that first sentence is that some of the transcripts are at the bottom of the spectrum as far as time precision is concerned.  Nothing to do with the teletype printouts.

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Your assumption that the voice message was received only a minute before the message was transmitted by teletype is not supported by facts.  For a very short message consisting of only a few words, it may be able to format it and transmit it in the same minute that is showing on the clock.  But for longer messages, a short paragraph or so and shown in some of the printouts, it may well take two or three minutes for receipt, processing, and transmitting.

Your assumption that there was any "format it and transmit it" is not supported by facts.  The messages were sent in the minute range identified at the end of the message, regardless of when the beginning of the message was first heard.

You have made a very abrupt U-turn on your claims about ARINC's involvement in the airliner communications on the evening of the hijacking.  Now instead of claiming that ARINC was not involved at all, you give a lecture about the history of ARINC and your assumptions about its relationship with NWA.

Again, contrary to your earlier allegations, the Xerox copies of the ARINC teletype messages (which you call "transcripts") are a record of how and what NWA and others, excluding the Seattle and Oakland ATC Centers, communicated with the hijacked airliner.  The Seattle and Oakland ATC Centers, plus other air traffic control facilities, used their own equipment to communicate with the airliner.  The NWA/FBI and others used ARINC capabilities for both the teletype messages as well as the voice phone patches.    And contrary to your claims, the ARINC teletype messages were "formatted" to ARINC standards before transmission.  I'm taking ARINC's word on that point over your claims.

It is unlikely that NWA had superior communication capabilities to TWA, PAA, and other such airlines that had extensive international operations.  And let me point out again, ARINC was not involved in air traffic control which was handled by the FAA through their own facilities.  Generally, you don't seem to understand the functions of these organizations and who had responsibility for what. 
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 07:26:27 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline hom

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #314 on: June 10, 2014, 03:06:09 AM »
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You have made a very abrupt U-turn on your claims about ARINC's involvement in the airliner communications on the evening of the hijacking.  Now instead of claiming that ARINC was not involved at all, you give a lecture about the history of ARINC and your assumptions about its relationship with NWA.

No U-turn.  If you had actually read my earlier post you would know that I have never claimed that ARINC was not involved at all.  It's also obvious that you didn't actually read the most recent post.  No surprise.  (That's why I didn't address it to you.)  It's typical of you.  Scan things looking for something you can bend to support your stupid concepts, or something to attack because it doesn't support your stupid concepts.

You should try to actually understand the lecture.  It explains why NWA was able to do in 1971 the same things as ARINC did as long as NWA's flight was in their historical service area.  The only difference was that ARINC had to be concerned with routing to and from their airline customers, while NWA didn't have to be concerned with that.  It's not assumptions.

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Again, contrary to your earlier allegations, the Xerox copies of the ARINC teletype messages (which you call "transcripts") are a record of how and what NWA and others, excluding the Seattle and Oakland ATC Centers, communicated with the hijacked airliner.  The Seattle and Oakland ATC Centers, plus other air traffic control facilities, used their own equipment to communicate with the airliner.


I don't usually call them transcripts.  I prefer "TTY log," but they are part of the 99 page document I call "transcripts" since that is what all the different parts are.  The TTY log is in fact a transcript, not of a recording but of the conversations as they were occurring--which is part of the reason they have so many errors.

What you said in the first sentence is not contrary to any of my earlier allegations except that I say ARINC has nothing to do with those teletype messages.  Maybe try actually reading my earlier allegations.  All the rest is obvious to me and probably everyone else.  Since you know it too, it appears it's obvious to any idiot.


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The NWA/FBI and others used ARINC capabilities for both the teletype messages as well as the voice phone patches.    And contrary to your claims, the ARINC teletype messages were "formatted" to ARINC standards before transmission.  I'm taking ARINC's word on that point over your claims.

"The" teletype messages?  Many organizations other than ARINC had the capabilities of sending and receiving teletype messages without ARINC involvement.  Even individuals (like "hams") do.  Sure.  Call it "formatted."

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It is unlikely that NWA had superior communication capabilities to TWA, PAA, and other such airlines that had extensive international operations.

Stupid comment.  Pointless.  I never said NWA had communication capabilities superior to those of such airlines.  NWA did have long-range radio communications capabilities that were superior to such capabilities of the airlines who had transferred those capabilities to ARINC when they established ARINC.  Those airlines had given up capabilities and become reliant on ARINC.  NWA had not.  Try to learn to read for comprehension.

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And let me point out again, ARINC was not involved in air traffic control which was handled by the FAA through their own facilities.  Generally, you don't seem to understand the functions of these organizations and who had responsibility for what.

Thanks for the useless info everyone knows.  Generally, you are incapable of learning.