Georger://

Nice summation of the communications between the crew and ATC/NWA.  I think that you have opened the door to some further speculation.  If Cooper is testing out the stairs, and that registers as "oscillations and bumps," then the "last" bump would arguably be the "bump that sent him out the door."   Or would it?   I propose a couple of other possibilities.   What if the crew was also experiencing turbulance and relied on their "feel" of the airflow as the "last bump."   Couldn't turbulance be confused with oscillations?  Are their other indicators on board that can register air pressure differentials, and thus, oscillations?  And another possibility.  If Cooper is the deceptive genious that some believe, what would prevent him from producing oscillations by plunging the airstairs a few times to create backpressure and a false positive to the crew?   If he has pilot training and knows aircraft, which he must to some degree, he might know how to create the impressions that will allow him to escape.

  Hmmm, I dont think those 727 stairs were a "tuned harp" that Cooper played ... like Mozart
creating an effect ?    Very likely the stairs were vibrating in the airstream as a result of their own mechanical realities ... remember Cooper called forward and said: 'slow and stabilise the plane'. Doesn't sound to me like there was much opportunity there for independent orchestration or playing those stairs like a Xylophone, to fool everyone ?   

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Georger:

The different traits between "planted" and "non-planted" could possibly show up through some form of biological detection, I suppose.  If the money was in a prior location for "x" number of years, its possible that there may be biological indicators that the money sat at another location besides Tina's Bar.  We know that Tom Kaye tested for silver nitrate, which was determined, but that was indicative of the FBI using "sn" in their earlier test for fingerprints.   So what other test exists?  How about "anaerobic v. aerobic?"   Would the bills go through accelerated degradation in one of those conditions?  I guess the larger question would be:  given the structural composition of the bills, what environmental factors would suggest the "rounded edges" and the "little holes" found on the bills?  Remember, Dr. Palmer stated that the money packets were only at TB for 9 to 12 months prior.

Coopsnoop, There is one additional peculiarity with the bills that should be considered.  Tom Kaye has photographs on his web page that indicates one packet of the bills had been "torqued", presumably by water.  Looking at those photographs is the best way to understand what I am talking about.  There is a very remote possibility that this torqueing could have been done by airflow over a relatively long period (weeks or a few months) of time.

If the packet was torqued by water, then why wasn't evidence of river water contamination found on the bills?  If it was done by airflow, the packet would have to be exposed to view for a lengthy period of time.  Since Tina Bar is visited daily by fishermen and "sand trampers", why didn't they notice the money?  The three packets of bills found at Tina Bar were very close to each other and did not appear to have been exposed to any great amount of violence (regardless of the torqueing).

Yes, Tom's comments about torquing, are interesting. Maybe the whole group of bills was torqued,
from impact? If that is the case then it may be proof the bag and Cooper were separated and
the bag fell to the ground, on its own?

But we have had this conversation before, I think. If I recall, you are interested to know if some
'torquing' indicates direction of water flow .... indicative of direction the money traveled to its location at Tina Bar? Am I correct?   

What evidence of "impact" would reveal itself in this money, as distinct from torquing or force on individual bills related to water pressure and direction of travel?

Can we be more specific in our requirements of traits and what different traits indicate, or rule out, in this money.

I wish Brian would join this conversation! 

I would also like to hear what Brian has to say about this.

The torqueing was counterclockwise as view from above.  For the torqueing to take place, the bottom of the packet of bills would have to be firmly attached in some manner to the surface below it.  If the torqueing was done at Tina Bar by the river water, the end of the packet with the rubber band still attached would be lower than the end without a rubber band and would be under an inch or two of water.

If the torqueing was done at Tina Bar and NOT by the river water, it would have to be done by water entering the river as drainage from the Fazio farm and sand operation.  In this case, the end of the packet with the rubber band still attached would be pointed downstream (to the south at Tina Bar).

Brian, can you remember the orientation of the packets of bills you found at Tina Bar?

Robert99   

Hey Brian.  Welcome.  A great team being assembled at your site, Shutter.  Congratulations!!

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Georger:

The different traits between "planted" and "non-planted" could possibly show up through some form of biological detection, I suppose.  If the money was in a prior location for "x" number of years, its possible that there may be biological indicators that the money sat at another location besides Tina's Bar.  We know that Tom Kaye tested for silver nitrate, which was determined, but that was indicative of the FBI using "sn" in their earlier test for fingerprints.   So what other test exists?  How about "anaerobic v. aerobic?"   Would the bills go through accelerated degradation in one of those conditions?  I guess the larger question would be:  given the structural composition of the bills, what environmental factors would suggest the "rounded edges" and the "little holes" found on the bills?  Remember, Dr. Palmer stated that the money packets were only at TB for 9 to 12 months prior.

Coopsnoop, There is one additional peculiarity with the bills that should be considered.  Tom Kaye has photographs on his web page that indicates one packet of the bills had been "torqued", presumably by water.  Looking at those photographs is the best way to understand what I am talking about.  There is a very remote possibility that this torqueing could have been done by airflow over a relatively long period (weeks or a few months) of time.

If the packet was torqued by water, then why wasn't evidence of river water contamination found on the bills?  If it was done by airflow, the packet would have to be exposed to view for a lengthy period of time.  Since Tina Bar is visited daily by fishermen and "sand trampers", why didn't they notice the money?  The three packets of bills found at Tina Bar were very close to each other and did not appear to have been exposed to any great amount of violence (regardless of the torqueing).

Yes, Tom's comments about torquing, are interesting. Maybe the whole group of bills was torqued,
from impact? If that is the case then it may be proof the bag and Cooper were separated and
the bag fell to the ground, on its own?

But we have had this conversation before, I think. If I recall, you are interested to know if some
'torquing' indicates direction of water flow .... indicative of direction the money traveled to its location at Tina Bar? Am I correct?   

What evidence of "impact" would reveal itself in this money, as distinct from torquing or force on individual bills related to water pressure and direction of travel?

Can we be more specific in our requirements of traits and what different traits indicate, or rule out, in this money.

I wish Brian would join this conversation! 

I would also like to hear what Brian has to say about this.

The torqueing was counterclockwise as view from above.  For the torqueing to take place, the bottom of the packet of bills would have to be firmly attached in some manner to the surface below it.  If the torqueing was done at Tina Bar by the river water, the end of the packet with the rubber band still attached would be lower than the end without a rubber band and would be under an inch or two of water.

If the torqueing was done at Tina Bar and NOT by the river water, it would have to be done by water entering the river as drainage from the Fazio farm and sand operation.  In this case, the end of the packet with the rubber band still attached would be pointed downstream (to the south at Tina Bar).

Brian, can you remember the orientation of the packets of bills you found at Tina Bar?

Robert99   

Am I correct in assuming Tom saw this in only one bill. (He had a total of 3 bills not in consecutive
order). So how far can one extrapolate from one bill, even if there is torque in that one bill?
The torquing, if it is real, in one bill, may or may not represent torquing in adjacent bills which Tom did not have to examine.
 

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Georger:

The different traits between "planted" and "non-planted" could possibly show up through some form of biological detection, I suppose.  If the money was in a prior location for "x" number of years, its possible that there may be biological indicators that the money sat at another location besides Tina's Bar.  We know that Tom Kaye tested for silver nitrate, which was determined, but that was indicative of the FBI using "sn" in their earlier test for fingerprints.   So what other test exists?  How about "anaerobic v. aerobic?"   Would the bills go through accelerated degradation in one of those conditions?  I guess the larger question would be:  given the structural composition of the bills, what environmental factors would suggest the "rounded edges" and the "little holes" found on the bills?  Remember, Dr. Palmer stated that the money packets were only at TB for 9 to 12 months prior.

Coopsnoop, There is one additional peculiarity with the bills that should be considered.  Tom Kaye has photographs on his web page that indicates one packet of the bills had been "torqued", presumably by water.  Looking at those photographs is the best way to understand what I am talking about.  There is a very remote possibility that this torqueing could have been done by airflow over a relatively long period (weeks or a few months) of time.

If the packet was torqued by water, then why wasn't evidence of river water contamination found on the bills?  If it was done by airflow, the packet would have to be exposed to view for a lengthy period of time.  Since Tina Bar is visited daily by fishermen and "sand trampers", why didn't they notice the money?  The three packets of bills found at Tina Bar were very close to each other and did not appear to have been exposed to any great amount of violence (regardless of the torqueing).

Yes, Tom's comments about torquing, are interesting. Maybe the whole group of bills was torqued,
from impact? If that is the case then it may be proof the bag and Cooper were separated and
the bag fell to the ground, on its own?

But we have had this conversation before, I think. If I recall, you are interested to know if some
'torquing' indicates direction of water flow .... indicative of direction the money traveled to its location at Tina Bar? Am I correct?   

What evidence of "impact" would reveal itself in this money, as distinct from torquing or force on individual bills related to water pressure and direction of travel?

Can we be more specific in our requirements of traits and what different traits indicate, or rule out, in this money.

I wish Brian would join this conversation! 

I would also like to hear what Brian has to say about this.

The torqueing was counterclockwise as view from above.  For the torqueing to take place, the bottom of the packet of bills would have to be firmly attached in some manner to the surface below it.  If the torqueing was done at Tina Bar by the river water, the end of the packet with the rubber band still attached would be lower than the end without a rubber band and would be under an inch or two of water.

If the torqueing was done at Tina Bar and NOT by the river water, it would have to be done by water entering the river as drainage from the Fazio farm and sand operation.  In this case, the end of the packet with the rubber band still attached would be pointed upstream (to the south at Tina Bar).

Brian, can you remember the orientation of the packets of bills you found at Tina Bar?

Robert99   

I have corrected the last few words in the next to last paragraph above to indicate that the end of the packet with the rubber band would be pointed "upstream" (rather than "downstream") which is to the south at Tina Bar.

Robert99

R99:

Why do you suppose Flight #305 dog-legged around PDX from the East to the West and back to the East?

R99:

Why do you suppose Flight #305 dog-legged around PDX from the East to the West and back to the East?

That "dog-legged" or "segmented circle" around the west side of Portland from what is now the Battleground VORTAC is NOT something that would have been done on that flight by that flight crew.

While on the ground in Seattle, the flight crew mentioned some possible "alternatives" to flying down Victor 23.  They had been informed that the Chief FAA Psychologist had predicted that Cooper would take a hostage with him and then blow up the airliner as they jumped.  Consequently, the crew did not want to fly over a densely inhabited area if they could avoid it.

When the airliner reached the Mayfield (now Malay) Intersection near Toledo, the most logical thing for them to do would be to head almost straight south and rejoin Victor 23 at or near the Canby Intersection.  If they did that, they would pass almost directly over Tina Bar.

If the precise flight path was available, and it should be in the un-redacted Seattle ATC transcripts, and if it supports the straight line bypass on the west side of Portland, then Cooper's jump point can easily be pinpointed.  At the same time, as I have pointed out previously, the geographical and topographical characteristics of Tina Bar are so unique that they have a real story to tell.  And that story may include evidence that Cooper died in the jump as a no-pull.

Just from a general inspection of Georger's photography of the Tina Bar area, plus topographical information, it is obvious to me that Cooper could not have jumped at a point north (or downstream) of Tina Bar or further south (upstream) than the Flushing Channel to Vancouver Lake.  And he probably landed on solid ground but very close to the east Columbia River shoreline.

There is also evidence on the so-called FBI maps that support a straight line bypass of Portland on the west side.  In addition, the National Guard T-33, the USAF F-106s, and Himmelsbach and his helicopter all headed to the southwest side of Portland.

If the un-redacted Seattle ATC transcripts aren't made available within a reasonable time, I will expand on the above as much as the available data permits.

Actually, at this point in time, there seems to be very little related to the redactions that is not known except for the exact times and aircraft locations that are necessary to determine an accurate flight path.

Did anyone ever ask Rataczak or Anderson about their flight path as they passed Portland?

Robert99

R99:

The dog-leg route flies over "populated space" regardless.  If jet is at 10,000 feet and Bohan is flying into PDX from the west at 5000 feet, four minutes behind #305, what difference would it make whether #305 flew a straight line over Government Island, or even flew to the east?   5000 feet of vertical separation is plenty enough to cross over PDX at night.  There must be a better reason to establish the dog-leg over downtown Vancouver.  The route generated by ATC and ARTCC, and provided to the FBI, is the accurate route made on 11/24/71.

First, the Bohan aircraft was not a known factor in anything related to the NWA aircraft that night.  Bohan's aircraft probably took Victor 23E straight from the Seattle VORTAC to the Battleground VORTAC (which was known as the Portland VORTAC in 1971) and did not use V-23 itself (except in the common areas near the mentioned VORTACs).  Sluggo's web page has copies of the maps that includes information that both the NWA and Bohan's aircraft would be using that night.  However, both the airliners would probably be using the Jeppesen versions of those maps.  Same information but some differences in formats.

The reasons for not wanting to fly over Portland would include reducing the probability of wreckage landing in Portland if Cooper did actually blow up the airliner.  Taking a bypass on the west side would also save a couple of minutes flying time.  It should be remembered that the NWA aircraft was in the Portland area before the performance group in Minneapolis told them that they appeared to have enough fuel to make it to Reno.

Do you know the source of the so-called "FBI Map"?  Who generated it and where did they get their information?  I presume that you have looked at the times and distances on that map.  How do you explain the three nautical miles in one minute and then six nautical miles in the next minute indications?