Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 982814 times)

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2955 on: May 05, 2020, 10:24:40 AM »
McCoy attempted to confuse the authorities as to his destination, giving them a list of cities to fly over. I'm only exploring what Cooper's Arizona suggestion could have been based on.
 

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2956 on: May 05, 2020, 10:44:57 AM »
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McCoy attempted to confuse the authorities as to his destination, giving them a list of cities to fly over. I'm only exploring what Cooper's Arizona suggestion could have been based on.

The obvious question then becomes: If DBC was planning to jump near Phoenix, why then did he jump near Vancouver?
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Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2957 on: May 05, 2020, 11:14:43 AM »
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The obvious question then becomes: If DBC was planning to jump near Phoenix, why then did he jump near Vancouver?

Walk yourself through it. You're Cooper. You want to go to Arizona. You don't want to advertise it. You have several ways of getting off the plane - jumping or landing, and you're open to whichever way gets you to safety. You think of having the plane fly over your destination. What would your destination have to be? You decide on Mexico City - that will give you time to get away while they're still tracking the plane. So you say, "Take me to Mexico City," waiting for them to answer with, "We have to refuel." You say, "Gee, you're right...how about Phoenix?" Flawless execution, until...

They point out problems with Phoenix and push Reno. At that point, you're already on plan B, which is jumping ASAP after takeoff.  Why? Multiple reasons - head start time, proximity to another airport, perhaps familiar territory. But you have to keep the facade of "Mexico City."  If you change destinations, they may catch on that you're screwing around, possibly now more committed to jumping, and you want to keep them guessing to keep them confused and divided. So you stick to the advertised destination and get out of Dodge.

Like I said, McCoy did something similar. Not without precident.  Gotta go back and re-read everything about the refueling conversation.
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2958 on: May 05, 2020, 11:16:02 AM »
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McCoy attempted to confuse the authorities as to his destination, giving them a list of cities to fly over. I'm only exploring what Cooper's Arizona suggestion could have been based on.

The obvious question then becomes: If DBC was planning to jump near Phoenix, why then did he jump near Vancouver?

Possibly along these lines is one of his requests.  According to Alice he asked for the money, parachutes, crew meals, fuel, and maps.  But she forgot what type of maps he asked for.  This seems to have all happened before the pilots told him they could not get to Mexico City and ended up with Reno. Did the maps indicate something of use for the investigation?  The map request seems to be something you would not forget.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2959 on: May 05, 2020, 12:45:24 PM »
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McCoy attempted to confuse the authorities as to his destination, giving them a list of cities to fly over. I'm only exploring what Cooper's Arizona suggestion could have been based on.

The obvious question then becomes: If DBC was planning to jump near Phoenix, why then did he jump near Vancouver?

Possibly along these lines is one of his requests.  According to Alice he asked for the money, parachutes, crew meals, fuel, and maps.  But she forgot what type of maps he asked for.  This seems to have all happened before the pilots told him they could not get to Mexico City and ended up with Reno. Did the maps indicate something of use for the investigation?  The map request seems to be something you would not forget.

There is no record of Cooper actually asking for any maps or crew meals.  The flight crew needed information as to where Cooper wanted to go so they could get the appropriate maps.  Upon learning that Cooper wanted to go to Mexico, Al Lee got together as many maps as he could for such a Seattle to Mexico flight and included four crew meals apparently without being asked and not including one for Cooper.

A flight from Seattle to Mexico or Reno to Mexico would not pass anywhere near Phoenix.  Cooper did not specify any flight path to get to Mexico.  He only agreed to head to Reno after the flight crew suggested it. 
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2960 on: May 05, 2020, 01:12:10 PM »
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McCoy attempted to confuse the authorities as to his destination, giving them a list of cities to fly over. I'm only exploring what Cooper's Arizona suggestion could have been based on.

The obvious question then becomes: If DBC was planning to jump near Phoenix, why then did he jump near Vancouver?

Possibly along these lines is one of his requests.  According to Alice he asked for the money, parachutes, crew meals, fuel, and maps.  But she forgot what type of maps he asked for.  This seems to have all happened before the pilots told him they could not get to Mexico City and ended up with Reno. Did the maps indicate something of use for the investigation?  The map request seems to be something you would not forget.

There is no record of Cooper actually asking for any maps or crew meals.  The flight crew needed information as to where Cooper wanted to go so they could get the appropriate maps.  Upon learning that Cooper wanted to go to Mexico, Al Lee got together as many maps as he could for such a Seattle to Mexico flight and included four crew meals apparently without being asked and not including one for Cooper.

A flight from Seattle to Mexico or Reno to Mexico would not pass anywhere near Phoenix.  Cooper did not specify any flight path to get to Mexico.  He only agreed to head to Reno after the flight crew suggested it.

The flight crew mentioned Reno, yes, that is my understanding as well.  Is it also your understanding that he suggested Phoenix and Yuma?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2961 on: May 05, 2020, 01:35:28 PM »
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McCoy attempted to confuse the authorities as to his destination, giving them a list of cities to fly over. I'm only exploring what Cooper's Arizona suggestion could have been based on.

The obvious question then becomes: If DBC was planning to jump near Phoenix, why then did he jump near Vancouver?

Possibly along these lines is one of his requests.  According to Alice he asked for the money, parachutes, crew meals, fuel, and maps.  But she forgot what type of maps he asked for.  This seems to have all happened before the pilots told him they could not get to Mexico City and ended up with Reno. Did the maps indicate something of use for the investigation?  The map request seems to be something you would not forget.

There is no record of Cooper actually asking for any maps or crew meals.  The flight crew needed information as to where Cooper wanted to go so they could get the appropriate maps.  Upon learning that Cooper wanted to go to Mexico, Al Lee got together as many maps as he could for such a Seattle to Mexico flight and included four crew meals apparently without being asked and not including one for Cooper.

A flight from Seattle to Mexico or Reno to Mexico would not pass anywhere near Phoenix.  Cooper did not specify any flight path to get to Mexico.  He only agreed to head to Reno after the flight crew suggested it.

The flight crew mentioned Reno, yes, that is my understanding as well.  Is it also your understanding that he suggested Phoenix and Yuma?

There is no record of Cooper suggesting anything other than that he wanted to go to Mexico.  He did not mention any route or city to get to Mexico.  He only agreed to what the flight crew suggested.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2962 on: May 05, 2020, 01:57:50 PM »
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There is no record of Cooper suggesting anything other than that he wanted to go to Mexico.  He did not mention any route or city to get to Mexico.  He only agreed to what the flight crew suggested.

My understanding regarding this is somewhat different. Specifically, I think it's well established that DBC offered up Phoenix as a refueling option.

However, it is not crystal clear who offered up Yuma. I tend to lean toward DBC offering Yuma which is interesting to ponder. After all, how many people have any idea where Yuma is? Moreover, Yuma is home to a Marine Air Base and Boeing has flight tested aircraft in and around Yuma for decades--perhaps further suggesting a Boeing connection.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2963 on: May 05, 2020, 03:04:19 PM »
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There is no record of Cooper suggesting anything other than that he wanted to go to Mexico.  He did not mention any route or city to get to Mexico.  He only agreed to what the flight crew suggested.

My understanding regarding this is somewhat different. Specifically, I think it's well established that DBC offered up Phoenix as a refueling option.

However, it is not crystal clear who offered up Yuma. I tend to lean toward DBC offering Yuma which is interesting to ponder. After all, how many people have any idea where Yuma is? Moreover, Yuma is home to a Marine Air Base and Boeing has flight tested aircraft in and around Yuma for decades--perhaps further suggesting a Boeing connection.

Do you have a source for Cooper making any suggestions for a refueling stops or for any stops before getting to Mexico?  The airliner could not have made it to Phoenix non-stop from Seattle in the configuration Cooper specified.  In fact, it wasn't until the airliner was in the Portland area that they knew they could make it to Reno non-stop. 

In 1971, it was Douglas that had a flight test facility at Yuma so there was no Boeing connection at that time.  Of course, Douglas was merged into Boeing at a later date.
 
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Offline fcastle866

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2964 on: May 05, 2020, 03:34:21 PM »
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McCoy attempted to confuse the authorities as to his destination, giving them a list of cities to fly over. I'm only exploring what Cooper's Arizona suggestion could have been based on.

The obvious question then becomes: If DBC was planning to jump near Phoenix, why then did he jump near Vancouver?

Possibly along these lines is one of his requests.  According to Alice he asked for the money, parachutes, crew meals, fuel, and maps.  But she forgot what type of maps he asked for.  This seems to have all happened before the pilots told him they could not get to Mexico City and ended up with Reno. Did the maps indicate something of use for the investigation?  The map request seems to be something you would not forget.

There is no record of Cooper actually asking for any maps or crew meals.  The flight crew needed information as to where Cooper wanted to go so they could get the appropriate maps.  Upon learning that Cooper wanted to go to Mexico, Al Lee got together as many maps as he could for such a Seattle to Mexico flight and included four crew meals apparently without being asked and not including one for Cooper.

A flight from Seattle to Mexico or Reno to Mexico would not pass anywhere near Phoenix.  Cooper did not specify any flight path to get to Mexico.  He only agreed to head to Reno after the flight crew suggested it.

Robert: Page 161 to 163 in Martin Andrade's book has a FBI debrief with Alice Hancock.  She states in this that he asked for maps and meals.  I'd have to do some looking through files to see what file that actually comes from, or ask someone who has cataloged the 302's to see if it is in there.

Alice said he asked for maps and meals.  Granted she did not have a lot of contact with Cooper, so it may have been her impression and may not have actually happened.

Part of his gentleman persona has come from the meal request.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2965 on: May 05, 2020, 03:41:04 PM »
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McCoy attempted to confuse the authorities as to his destination, giving them a list of cities to fly over. I'm only exploring what Cooper's Arizona suggestion could have been based on.

The obvious question then becomes: If DBC was planning to jump near Phoenix, why then did he jump near Vancouver?

Possibly along these lines is one of his requests.  According to Alice he asked for the money, parachutes, crew meals, fuel, and maps.  But she forgot what type of maps he asked for.  This seems to have all happened before the pilots told him they could not get to Mexico City and ended up with Reno. Did the maps indicate something of use for the investigation?  The map request seems to be something you would not forget.

There is no record of Cooper actually asking for any maps or crew meals.  The flight crew needed information as to where Cooper wanted to go so they could get the appropriate maps.  Upon learning that Cooper wanted to go to Mexico, Al Lee got together as many maps as he could for such a Seattle to Mexico flight and included four crew meals apparently without being asked and not including one for Cooper.

A flight from Seattle to Mexico or Reno to Mexico would not pass anywhere near Phoenix.  Cooper did not specify any flight path to get to Mexico.  He only agreed to head to Reno after the flight crew suggested it.

Robert: Page 161 to 163 in Martin Andrade's book has a FBI debrief with Alice Hancock.  She states in this that he asked for maps and meals.  I'd have to do some looking through files to see what file that actually comes from, or ask someone who has cataloged the 302's to see if it is in there.

Alice said he asked for maps and meals.  Granted she did not have a lot of contact with Cooper, so it may have been her impression and may not have actually happened.

Part of his gentleman persona has come from the meal request.

Part of his gentleman persona has come from the meal request.

Really! How so?  You mean like feeding prisoners in jails? Compassion.

Did Cooper own a tux and attend the opera? Which opera?

Did Cooper wash his feet?   Did Hancock ask?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 03:44:57 PM by georger »
 

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2966 on: May 05, 2020, 03:44:34 PM »
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Do you have a source for Cooper making any suggestions for a refueling stops or for any stops before getting to Mexico?  The airliner could not have made it to Phoenix non-stop from Seattle in the configuration Cooper specified.  In fact, it wasn't until the airliner was in the Portland area that they knew they could make it to Reno non-stop. 

In 1971, it was Douglas that had a flight test facility at Yuma so there was no Boeing connection at that time.  Of course, Douglas was merged into Boeing at a later date.

The Phoenix and Yuma suggestions are in the FBI files, off the top of my head not sure where. It's clear from these files that Cooper suggested Phoenix. It's a little hazy as to how Yuma entered the conversation. It may have been Cooper saying the he knew the jet could make it to Yuma or something similar.

Boeing tested at Edwards (I believe) with the 727 and may have flown to other regional areas as part of the Edwards testing--even if only as an emergency landing spot if a problem arrived. And yes, Boeing started actively testing in Yuma in the 80's if I'm not mistaken even though Douglas was already there.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2967 on: May 05, 2020, 03:47:00 PM »
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Do you have a source for Cooper making any suggestions for a refueling stops or for any stops before getting to Mexico?  The airliner could not have made it to Phoenix non-stop from Seattle in the configuration Cooper specified.  In fact, it wasn't until the airliner was in the Portland area that they knew they could make it to Reno non-stop. 

In 1971, it was Douglas that had a flight test facility at Yuma so there was no Boeing connection at that time.  Of course, Douglas was merged into Boeing at a later date.

The Phoenix and Yuma suggestions are in the FBI files, off the top of my head not sure where. It's clear from these files that Cooper suggested Phoenix. It's a little hazy as to how Yuma entered the conversation. It may have been Cooper saying the he knew the jet could make it to Yuma or something similar.

Boeing tested at Edwards (I believe) with the 727 and may have flown to other regional areas as part of the Edwards testing--even if only as an emergency landing spot if a problem arrived. And yes, Boeing started actively testing in Yuma in the 80's if I'm not mistaken even though Douglas was already there.

You mean in the PI ATC Transcript?  Maybe go look?   ::)
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2968 on: May 05, 2020, 04:00:19 PM »
Brand new INTERPRETATIONS by FKYJACK!   (to fit his suspect of course)  ;)

 FLYJACK
#61817

1 hour ago (edited)

Cooper’s initial demand was Mexico City, non stop in US for any reason. It wasn’t nonstop to Mexico City, the plane could refuel in Mexico. His initial demand was also airstairs lowered inflight. NOT airstairs down on takeoff, that came up later.

The problem everyone is noodling is why make a demand the plane's range couldn’t achieve flying dirty that would be rejected.

The logical answer is either Cooper believed the demand was achievable or he was engaged in some sort of misdirection.

Everyone has accepted the theory that he knew it was unachievable and was somehow instigating some negotiation. I disagree, this makes no sense and there is no evidence for it..

IMO, Cooper thought the plane could reach Mexico.. when he made his initial demand.

So, if Cooper was knowledgable about the 727 aircraft and had flying experience how did he make such an obvious error. He got the range way off if the 727 was flying in that configuration.

Everybody has made the assumption that Cooper made a demand he knew was unachievable and would be rejected.

That assumption may be wrong.

Here is a theory nobody has brought up.. 

All of Cooper’s demands regarding Mexico and the plane configuration were passed to the crew orally through Tina.

What if Tina didn’t convey the instructions to the pilots exactly as Cooper intended.

What if he initially wanted the dirty configuration applied when the airstairs were lowered inflight by the stew, not the entire flightpath. We only have Tina’s interpretation of Cooper’s demand to go by.

It is extremely unlikely Cooper made the initial demand of "no stops in US for any reason" knowing it was unachievable. It makes no sense for Cooper to make a demand that he knew would be rejected.

IMO, Cooper’s initial plan was to jump outside the US.. airstairs lowered inflight by Tina. She conveyed his instructions slightly inaccurately to the pilots and they went back to Cooper to negotiate a stop in Reno. When Reno was agreed to Cooper changed his plan to jump before the plane landed in Reno. That is when the airstairs down on takeoff came up. Cooper’s LZ wasn’t his initial plan, it was ad hoc.

Other factors,, Cooper wasn’t dressed for a PNW jump and Cooper's money demand was referred to as “US” currency by Tina and “American” currency by pilots… that suggests a foreign element. Why define the currency as US/American.. AND Cooper was described as swarthy, latin, Mexican in features and appearance..

Edited 1 hour ago by FLYJACK

* What are suspect peddler cultists going to do if Cooper turns out to have been Chinese!     :rofl:
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 04:06:53 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2969 on: May 05, 2020, 04:21:18 PM »
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McCoy attempted to confuse the authorities as to his destination, giving them a list of cities to fly over. I'm only exploring what Cooper's Arizona suggestion could have been based on.

The obvious question then becomes: If DBC was planning to jump near Phoenix, why then did he jump near Vancouver?

Possibly along these lines is one of his requests.  According to Alice he asked for the money, parachutes, crew meals, fuel, and maps.  But she forgot what type of maps he asked for.  This seems to have all happened before the pilots told him they could not get to Mexico City and ended up with Reno. Did the maps indicate something of use for the investigation?  The map request seems to be something you would not forget.

There is no record of Cooper actually asking for any maps or crew meals.  The flight crew needed information as to where Cooper wanted to go so they could get the appropriate maps.  Upon learning that Cooper wanted to go to Mexico, Al Lee got together as many maps as he could for such a Seattle to Mexico flight and included four crew meals apparently without being asked and not including one for Cooper.

A flight from Seattle to Mexico or Reno to Mexico would not pass anywhere near Phoenix.  Cooper did not specify any flight path to get to Mexico.  He only agreed to head to Reno after the flight crew suggested it.

Robert: Page 161 to 163 in Martin Andrade's book has a FBI debrief with Alice Hancock.  She states in this that he asked for maps and meals.  I'd have to do some looking through files to see what file that actually comes from, or ask someone who has cataloged the 302's to see if it is in there.

Alice said he asked for maps and meals.  Granted she did not have a lot of contact with Cooper, so it may have been her impression and may not have actually happened.

Part of his gentleman persona has come from the meal request.

This has actually been discussed in detail here recently.  Alice and Flo were interviewed by the FBI in Seattle just after they got off the plane.  Alice mentions the maps and meals.  Flo does not and she was probably in the cockpit when they would have been requested and delivered.  Tina does not mention either the maps or meals in her FBI interview later that night in Reno.

Tina is the one who carried everything onto the airplane in Seattle.  If Cooper had asked for maps and meals, he probably would have done it through Tina and she would have passed the information by the interphone to Flo who was in the cockpit and writing notes of Cooper's requests.  The cockpit crew would then have passed that information to Al Lee.  But there is nothing to suggest that Cooper made such a request.  Alice may have seen the meals and maps in a box that Tina carried onboard and assumed that Cooper asked for them.  But there were only four crew meals and not one for Cooper.

When Cooper stated that he wanted to go to Mexico, Al Lee would automatically have started gathering the necessary flight maps, approach plates, and such without being asked.  He included four meals for his crew because he knew they hadn't eaten in several hours and still had an unknown number of hours to go.  Al Lee was just taking care of his NWA crew.