Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues (Read 908748 times)

Robert99 · « **Reply #2460 on:** August 04, 2019, 06:14:14 PM »

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To fly a straight line to the Eugene VORTAC, all the airline crew would have to do is tune in the Eugene VORTAC, center the needle to indicate that they were flying "TO" the VORTAC, and then fly that heading.

Exactly my point. proof of them having been tuned to Battleground vs Eugene when they decided to divert from Portland and turn 15 degree's at Kelso doesn't make sense. they were still tuned to BTG 23 miles DME past the VOR. should of been tuned to Eugene 112.9 at the decision of routing around Portland clear up at Kelso. this sounds consistent with a pilot wanting to stay on V-23 per the agreement prior to takeoff.

I don't think the path was a secret and were given the sky but did decide on V-23. sure, they could of deviated from any location given the fact they had the sky. the totality of evidence doesn't support that.

The further you push the plane west of V-23 parallel with Kelso the closer it gets to Hillsboro and no longer becomes east of it. the plane pretty much has to deviate 15 degree's from centerline of V23 to get east of Hillsboro. airways are 8 miles wide and not 10. it puts it 13 nautical miles plus away from V-23 in certain locations. it also starts to intrude into another airway west of the Columbia. in order to keep a good straight line would be tuning into Eugene. no mention of Eugene until they were almost on top of it.

The map vs FDR should have them scratching there heads because it wouldn't look anything like the map. I'm pretty sure time was on the FDR and obviously direction/heading. the failure of any turns should cause a red flag with the map. I believe they got all the maps/plates needed for the flight. I recall them asking if they got them...

Shutter, remember that the airliner had TWO VOR receivers and TWO DME receivers. The crew could be tuned into the Eugene VORTAC and flying directly toward it and receiving distance information from it and they could also be tuned into the now named Battleground VORTAC and receiving both radial and distance information from it at the same time.

If I remember correctly, Victor airways were still 10 STATUTE MILES wide in 1971. They are now 8 NAUTICAL MILES wide which translates to 4.6 statute miles on each side or 9.2 statute miles in total width.

In all honesty, I don't think the FDR information would be of much use in determining the flight path in this instance.

Robert99 · « **Reply #2461 on:** August 04, 2019, 06:17:09 PM »

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This really wouldn't have anything to do with ARTCC to an extent. it's the transcripts report from the pilots showing they were locked onto BTG even after passing the VOR. I fail to see the reasoning for this if they were flying direct to Eugene from Kelso. this would be a pilots decision vs ARTCC.

The airliner had two VOR and two DME receivers. So it could have been tuned into both the Eugene and Battleground VORTACS at the same time and receiving radial and distance information from each one.

Robert99 · « **Reply #2462 on:** August 04, 2019, 06:22:56 PM »

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Yes that is my understanding. That said, this was by default. Put another way, it just happened to be in V23 and wasn't prescribed to V23. Later, according to Cliff, 305 slipped out of the western boundary of V23 (west of PDX) which was of no concern to him because he had absolutely no say where the jet was supposed to fly. Indeed, 305 owned the sky and could fly any way the pilots chose. Moreover, 305 was flying in a straight path to the Eugene VORTAC.

Shortly before takeoff ground control did authorize V-23 at 10,000 as the flight plan all the way to Sacramento. he should of radioed any deviation. it's all on reel #5 in the transcripts where they decide V-23 is the route for the entire flight.

The clearance to Sacramento was provided for their use in case all communications were lost for some reason. It was essentially a back-up IFR plan in case they needed it. They could have flown to Sacramento and made an instrument approach without further communications with anyone and the air traffic control people would have been making allowances for them to do exactly that.

Robert99 · « **Reply #2463 on:** August 04, 2019, 06:45:21 PM »

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I agree, based on Cliff's description. But, when the T33 and 305 united was 305 on V23? I think yes. The west side of V23, and I think Cliff would accept that. Do you accept that?
Honestly, when it comes to flight path, I'm entirely happy to defer to pilot expertise/Robert99 here. With the caveat that there are transcripts we simply don't have and that the Feds seem unlikely to make available. Would there be anyone still alive who might have copies of them? Guessing no?

Yes that is my understanding. That said, this was by default. Put another way, it just happened to be in V23 and wasn't prescribed to V23. Later, according to Cliff, 305 slipped out of the western boundary of V23 (west of PDX) which was of no concern to him because he had absolutely no say where the jet was supposed to fly. Indeed, 305 owned the sky and could fly any way the pilots chose. Moreover, 305 was flying in a straight path to the Eugene VORTAC.

To fly a straight line to the Eugene VORTAC, all the airline crew would have to do is tune in the Eugene VORTAC, center the needle to indicate that they were flying "TO" the VORTAC, and then fly that heading.

The maps they asked for and needed were IFR related maps and instrument approach procedures that contained the navigational information they needed to fly south. Normally, airline crews would only have onboard maps and instrument approach procedures related to their scheduled route and nearby areas. They would not necessarily have maps and procedures for areas that they would never expect to be. That is, NWA 305 in flying from Minneapolis to Seattle would not have onboard maps for Miami or Los Angeles to cite an extreme example. And in fact, they did not have maps for San Francisco or Reno either.

Lynn, it is entirely possible that some individuals have copies of the Seattle ATC radio transcripts. But they are probably not going to publicly admit it. Although the FBI may be setting on them, there is nothing secret about them since they only contain information that was broadcast over a government owned radio system that anyone with a VHF receiver in the northwest part of the USA could listen in on. And quite a few people reportedly did listen in on those radio conversations.

Shutter · « **Reply #2464 on:** August 04, 2019, 07:13:35 PM »

The recent advice I got was possibly contacting the FAA Northwest Mountain division. I don't know if a specific place would be any better? he stated they don't throw anything away...

Shutter · « **Reply #2465 on:** August 04, 2019, 07:28:40 PM »

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Yes that is my understanding. That said, this was by default. Put another way, it just happened to be in V23 and wasn't prescribed to V23. Later, according to Cliff, 305 slipped out of the western boundary of V23 (west of PDX) which was of no concern to him because he had absolutely no say where the jet was supposed to fly. Indeed, 305 owned the sky and could fly any way the pilots chose. Moreover, 305 was flying in a straight path to the Eugene VORTAC.

Shortly before takeoff ground control did authorize V-23 at 10,000 as the flight plan all the way to Sacramento. he should of radioed any deviation. it's all on reel #5 in the transcripts where they decide V-23 is the route for the entire flight.

The clearance to Sacramento was provided for their use in case all communications were lost for some reason. It was essentially a back-up IFR plan in case they needed it. They could have flown to Sacramento and made an instrument approach without further communications with anyone and the air traffic control people would have been making allowances for them to do exactly that.

My point would be that the sky being the limit does have it's limit. they appear to all be on the same page that V-23 was the route to be taken. clearance, for what ever reason was given. while on the ground they explained the sky was the limit. then a plan evolved. one would believe deviating out of this range would have the ARTCC diverting to make sure the area was clear further out than originally expected while 305 seeks a new path.

Robert99 · « **Reply #2466 on:** August 04, 2019, 07:51:57 PM »

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The recent advice I got was possibly contacting the FAA Northwest Mountain division. I don't know if a specific place would be any better? he stated they don't throw anything away...

The FAA regional office in Seattle was the first place I contacted. They referred me to the FBI FOIA and the rest is history. That is, it was basically a waste of time.

Shutter · « **Reply #2467 on:** August 04, 2019, 08:12:12 PM »

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The recent advice I got was possibly contacting the FAA Northwest Mountain division. I don't know if a specific place would be any better? he stated they don't throw anything away...

The FAA regional office in Seattle was the first place I contacted. They referred me to the FBI FOIA and the rest is history. That is, it was basically a waste of time.

All I remembered is you contacting them. figures.....what would Seattle Center have?

Robert99 · « **Reply #2468 on:** August 04, 2019, 08:36:18 PM »

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The recent advice I got was possibly contacting the FAA Northwest Mountain division. I don't know if a specific place would be any better? he stated they don't throw anything away...

The FAA regional office in Seattle was the first place I contacted. They referred me to the FBI FOIA and the rest is history. That is, it was basically a waste of time.

All I remembered is you contacting them. figures.....what would Seattle Center have?

Seattle Center would probably have transferred their file copies of the transcripts to the FAA Regional Office in Seattle within a couple of years of the hijacking. It is unlikely that the Seattle Center has any copies of those transcripts now. And the FAA Regional Office may have transferred everything related to the hijacking to FAA Headquarters in Washington, DC.

Shutter · « **Reply #2469 on:** August 04, 2019, 09:49:40 PM »

How would you lock one VOR and radial another. using NAV 2? if the HSI is set up and locked. where do you get the info for VOR 2. the HSI has DME 1....

Robert99 · « **Reply #2470 on:** August 04, 2019, 11:48:44 PM »

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How would you lock one VOR and radial another. using NAV 2? if the HSI is set up and locked. where do you get the info for VOR 2. the HSI has DME 1....

A long time ago, you or someone posted a picture of a 727 instrument panel. It showed a navigation selector switch, and maybe one for the Captain and one for the co-pilot, and that is how you put things on the HSI. I believe that you could put either VOR, either DME, and/or either ADF on the Captain's HSI. And I think you could do the same thing with the co-pilot's instruments although he may not have had as an advanced panel as the Captain. But rest assured that all of these avionics are going to be available for viewing by the flight crew at the same time.

georger · « **Reply #2471 on:** August 05, 2019, 12:51:55 AM »

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I agree, based on Cliff's description. But, when the T33 and 305 united was 305 on V23? I think yes. The west side of V23, and I think Cliff would accept that. Do you accept that?

Yes that is my understanding. That said, this was by default. Put another way, it just happened to be in V23 and wasn't prescribed to V23. Later, according to Cliff, 305 slipped out of the western boundary of V23 (west of PDX) which was of no concern to him because he had absolutely no say where the jet was supposed to fly. Indeed, 305 owned the sky and could fly any way the pilots chose. Moreover, 305 was flying in a straight path to the Eugene VORTAC.

To fly a straight line to the Eugene VORTAC, all the airline crew would have to do is tune in the Eugene VORTAC, center the needle to indicate that they were flying "TO" the VORTAC, and then fly that heading.

The maps they asked for and needed were IFR related maps and instrument approach procedures that contained the navigational information they needed to fly south. Normally, airline crews would only have onboard maps and instrument approach procedures related to their scheduled route and nearby areas. They would not necessarily have maps and procedures for areas that they would never expect to be. That is, NWA 305 in flying from Minneapolis to Seattle would not have onboard maps for Miami or Los Angeles to cite an extreme example. And in fact, they did not have maps for San Francisco or Reno either.

Did Cooper plant the money with a trowel or his hands? Gloves. No gloves? What time of day?

Since Bohan is all Bullshit, why did the FAA or any company let him fly an airplane? Should he have been grounded .. and sent to Siberia with his children? Or maybe executed?

Since Bohan is all Bullshit, I assume that means he could see the lights of Portland coming up either! How in hell did he manage to land the plane there? An accident?

Maybe the co-pilot landed the airplane in Portland. In making such easily disproved claims, Bohan may having been seeing if he had what it takes to pursue a political career in DC after retiring from airline flying.

No worse than some of the claims - you have been hiding.

georger · « **Reply #2472 on:** August 05, 2019, 01:21:23 AM »

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I just spoke with Cliff and will clarify some points in a bit. I asked about the 23 miles south of BTG DME and V23 path, etc. As stated, I'll write something up and post it within an hour or so.

While you are meditating and writing 'something up', did you bother to ask Cliff about the pilots statement: 'we could see the lights of Portland coming up' ?

A statement which clever 99 has ruled impossible, and therefore not admissible - freeing 99 to say anything!

Robert99 · « **Reply #2473 on:** August 05, 2019, 01:49:10 AM »

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I just spoke with Cliff and will clarify some points in a bit. I asked about the 23 miles south of BTG DME and V23 path, etc. As stated, I'll write something up and post it within an hour or so.

While you are meditating and writing 'something up', did you bother to ask Cliff about the pilots statement: 'we could see the lights of Portland coming up' ?

A statement which clever 99 has ruled impossible, and therefore not admissible - freeing 99 to say anything!

So Georger can see the actual light bulbs through an overcast, three cloud layers, and rain showers. I actually said that the crew would be able to see the "glow" from the Portland lights.

Get a good nights sleep and the world will probably look better to you tomorrow.

georger · « **Reply #2474 on:** August 05, 2019, 02:28:47 AM »

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I just spoke with Cliff and will clarify some points in a bit. I asked about the 23 miles south of BTG DME and V23 path, etc. As stated, I'll write something up and post it within an hour or so.

While you are meditating and writing 'something up', did you bother to ask Cliff about the pilots statement: 'we could see the lights of Portland coming up' ?

A statement which clever 99 has ruled impossible, and therefore not admissible - freeing 99 to say anything!

So Georger can see the actual light bulbs through an overcast, three cloud layers, and rain showers. I actually said that the crew would be able to see the "glow" from the Portland lights.

Get a good nights sleep and the world will probably look better to you tomorrow.

3 cloud layers now - its was two. Or several. This has morphed! 'I actually said that the crew would be able to see the "glow" from the Portland lights.'

On 8-4 you said:

"Robert99
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2447 on: August 04, 2019, 01:14:40 AM »

"It is highly unlikely that the flight crew could actually see the physical lights of Portland due to their being above an overcast and several cloud layers. They may have been able to see the "glow" of the Portland lights but that glow can be highly diffused and not useful in pinpointing their location. "

So you are still confident their position cannot be pinpointed . . . make up your mind!

You get a good night's sleep and tell us tomorrow what the difference between lights and glow is -