Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 908772 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2445 on: August 04, 2019, 12:42:08 AM »
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All I can tell you is what Cliff said. Consider that the location comments aren't meant to convey precise data. Rather, Cliff gave me his estimates of where the jet was at certain times. What was abundantly clear in any case is the belief on the part of him and Captain Scott's friend Catherine that 305 traveled west of downtown Portland and that this was done intentionally. Moreover, Cliff made it clear he cannot explain the FBI map denoting erratic turns left and right because he stated that the T-33 received only one vector all the way down to Eugene. Simply put, both 305 and the T-33 flew in a straight line to Eugene from a point approximately east of Kelso.

because he stated that the T-33 received only one vector all the way down to Eugene

You mean one instruction to 'vector' ,   'make a turn' ?   Or do you mean Victor not Vector?

What are you saying?

My verbiage may or may not be incorrect.

Regardless, when the T-33 was pulled in five miles behind 305 he was given a specific heading that was the same as 305. This heading was never changed. The T-33 and 305 flew in a straight line all the way to Eugene. This according to Cliff.

I agree, based on Cliff's description. But, when the T33 and 305 united was 305 on V23? I think yes. The west side of V23,  and I think Cliff would accept that. Do you accept that? 
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 12:43:37 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2446 on: August 04, 2019, 12:44:06 AM »
who will accept the pilot statement of being in the suburbs and not reaching Portland proper. hows is that done west of the Columbia river?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2447 on: August 04, 2019, 01:14:40 AM »
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who will accept the pilot statement of being in the suburbs and not reaching Portland proper. hows is that done west of the Columbia river?

It is highly unlikely that the flight crew could actually see the physical lights of Portland due to their being above an overcast and several cloud layers.  They may have been able to see the "glow" of the Portland lights but that glow can be highly diffused and not useful in pinpointing their location. 
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2448 on: August 04, 2019, 02:52:17 AM »
Just a tad confused here.....

Interesting, they claim to know where they are but are really miles away from the suburbs. but knew how to fly a straight line to Eugene away from Portland?

Then the statement from Scott I believe saying they were east of the Woodland area?
Portland radar operators state 3 miles east southeast of La Center that puts the plane around the 8:12 location and around 6 miles from the 8:10 location. with an AGL of 8,000 or another operator statement of being seven nautical miles from Amboy? not 15 plus NM's? and one more statement from a Portland radar operator giving a ground location over 12 miles away from a western path, who else was a sleep at the wheel other than the pilots?

If we are suggesting a flight from Kelso to Eugene we would expect them to be tuned in to Eugene VOR from Kleso. 112.9 instead they are locked to Battleground and beyond being 23 miles DME past Portland approaching the Canby intersection. why would they even bother with Battleground. could it be that it was around V23 keeping them in line?

What happened to the red dots of lost radar contact in this area where the plane diverted west? 20:05 to 20:11. the pilots knew along with Ammerman but the Air Force didn't even though they had the same radar plus another radar the FAA doesn't have?

The pilots requested maps. but didn't know where they were but knew how to fly a straight line from Kelso to Eugene and couldn't figure out if they were in the suburbs of Portland because light is defused in clouds. they couldn't determine the defused glow was out the left side of the cockpit vs dead ahead? Eugene is mentioned at 8:45 and arriving over Eugene VOR at 8:52?

I think that sums it up?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2449 on: August 04, 2019, 03:40:18 AM »
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Just a tad confused here.....

Interesting, they claim to know where they are but are really miles away from the suburbs. but knew how to fly a straight line to Eugene away from Portland?

Then the statement from Scott I believe saying they were east of the Woodland area?
Portland radar operators state 3 miles east southeast of La Center that puts the plane around the 8:12 location and around 6 miles from the 8:10 location. with an AGL of 8,000 or another operator statement of being seven nautical miles from Amboy? not 15 plus NM's? and one more statement from a Portland radar operator giving a ground location over 12 miles away from a western path, who else was a sleep at the wheel other than the pilots?

If we are suggesting a flight from Kelso to Eugene we would expect them to be tuned in to Eugene VOR from Kleso. 112.9 instead they are locked to Battleground and beyond being 23 miles DME past Portland approaching the Canby intersection. why would they even bother with Battleground. could it be that it was around V23 keeping them in line?

What happened to the red dots of lost radar contact in this area where the plane diverted west? 20:05 to 20:11. the pilots knew along with Ammerman but the Air Force didn't even though they had the same radar plus another radar the FAA doesn't have?

The pilots requested maps. but didn't know where they were but knew how to fly a straight line from Kelso to Eugene and couldn't figure out if they were in the suburbs of Portland because light is defused in clouds. they couldn't determine the defused glow was out the left side of the cockpit vs dead ahead? Eugene is mentioned at 8:45 and arriving over Eugene VOR at 8:52?

I think that sums it up?

The Light issue:

What we need are some pilots who flew into PDX or Troutdale that night, or over Portland to someplace south. They would know if they saw the lights of Portland coming up! It's as simple as that.

It's too bad nobody bothered to ask Bohan. To be hung up on this all these years is crazy.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 03:42:57 AM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2450 on: August 04, 2019, 08:22:16 AM »
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I agree, based on Cliff's description. But, when the T33 and 305 united was 305 on V23? I think yes. The west side of V23,  and I think Cliff would accept that. Do you accept that?

Yes that is my understanding. That said, this was by default. Put another way, it just happened to be in V23 and wasn't prescribed to V23. Later, according to Cliff, 305 slipped out of the western boundary of V23 (west of PDX) which was of no concern to him because he had absolutely no say where the jet was supposed to fly. Indeed, 305 owned the sky and could fly any way the pilots chose. Moreover, 305 was flying in a straight path to the Eugene VORTAC.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2451 on: August 04, 2019, 01:55:32 PM »
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Just a tad confused here.....

Interesting, they claim to know where they are but are really miles away from the suburbs. but knew how to fly a straight line to Eugene away from Portland?

Then the statement from Scott I believe saying they were east of the Woodland area?
Portland radar operators state 3 miles east southeast of La Center that puts the plane around the 8:12 location and around 6 miles from the 8:10 location. with an AGL of 8,000 or another operator statement of being seven nautical miles from Amboy? not 15 plus NM's? and one more statement from a Portland radar operator giving a ground location over 12 miles away from a western path, who else was a sleep at the wheel other than the pilots?

If we are suggesting a flight from Kelso to Eugene we would expect them to be tuned in to Eugene VOR from Kleso. 112.9 instead they are locked to Battleground and beyond being 23 miles DME past Portland approaching the Canby intersection. why would they even bother with Battleground. could it be that it was around V23 keeping them in line?

What happened to the red dots of lost radar contact in this area where the plane diverted west? 20:05 to 20:11. the pilots knew along with Ammerman but the Air Force didn't even though they had the same radar plus another radar the FAA doesn't have?

The pilots requested maps. but didn't know where they were but knew how to fly a straight line from Kelso to Eugene and couldn't figure out if they were in the suburbs of Portland because light is defused in clouds. they couldn't determine the defused glow was out the left side of the cockpit vs dead ahead? Eugene is mentioned at 8:45 and arriving over Eugene VOR at 8:52?

I think that sums it up?

The Light issue:

What we need are some pilots who flew into PDX or Troutdale that night, or over Portland to someplace south. They would know if they saw the lights of Portland coming up! It's as simple as that.

It's too bad nobody bothered to ask Bohan. To be hung up on this all these years is crazy.

Forget about Bohan!  His claims are absolute nonsense!

He said he had a 80 knots headwind from the southeast between Seattle and Portland.  The measured winds aloft, that Tom Kaye managed to find, indicate that they were only about 35 knots and were from the southwest.

Bohan also claimed that there was an extremely high crosswind that caused him difficulty on landing in Portland.  The measured surface winds at Portland never exceeded 12 MPH from any direction that entire day and evening.  Even a two year old child could handle that crosswind.  And the 727 had demonstrated that it could handle cross wind components of about 30 MPH.

In summary, Bohan's claims are bullshit!   
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2452 on: August 04, 2019, 02:10:08 PM »
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I agree, based on Cliff's description. But, when the T33 and 305 united was 305 on V23? I think yes. The west side of V23,  and I think Cliff would accept that. Do you accept that?

Yes that is my understanding. That said, this was by default. Put another way, it just happened to be in V23 and wasn't prescribed to V23. Later, according to Cliff, 305 slipped out of the western boundary of V23 (west of PDX) which was of no concern to him because he had absolutely no say where the jet was supposed to fly. Indeed, 305 owned the sky and could fly any way the pilots chose. Moreover, 305 was flying in a straight path to the Eugene VORTAC.

To fly a straight line to the Eugene VORTAC, all the airline crew would have to do is tune in the Eugene VORTAC, center the needle to indicate that they were flying "TO" the VORTAC, and then fly that heading.

The maps they asked for and needed were IFR related maps and instrument approach procedures that contained the navigational information they needed to fly south.  Normally, airline crews would only have onboard maps and instrument approach procedures related to their scheduled route and nearby areas.  They would not necessarily have maps and procedures for areas that they would never expect to be.  That is, NWA 305 in flying from Minneapolis to Seattle would not have onboard maps for Miami or Los Angeles to cite an extreme example.  And in fact, they did not have maps for San Francisco or Reno either.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2453 on: August 04, 2019, 02:14:03 PM »
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I agree, based on Cliff's description. But, when the T33 and 305 united was 305 on V23? I think yes. The west side of V23,  and I think Cliff would accept that. Do you accept that?

Yes that is my understanding. That said, this was by default. Put another way, it just happened to be in V23 and wasn't prescribed to V23. Later, according to Cliff, 305 slipped out of the western boundary of V23 (west of PDX) which was of no concern to him because he had absolutely no say where the jet was supposed to fly. Indeed, 305 owned the sky and could fly any way the pilots chose. Moreover, 305 was flying in a straight path to the Eugene VORTAC.

To fly a straight line to the Eugene VORTAC, all the airline crew would have to do is tune in the Eugene VORTAC, center the needle to indicate that they were flying "TO" the VORTAC, and then fly that heading.

The maps they asked for and needed were IFR related maps and instrument approach procedures that contained the navigational information they needed to fly south.  Normally, airline crews would only have onboard maps and instrument approach procedures related to their scheduled route and nearby areas.  They would not necessarily have maps and procedures for areas that they would never expect to be.  That is, NWA 305 in flying from Minneapolis to Seattle would not have onboard maps for Miami or Los Angeles to cite an extreme example.  And in fact, they did not have maps for San Francisco or Reno either.

Did Cooper plant the money with a  trowel or his hands? Gloves. No gloves? What time of day?  8)

Since Bohan is all Bullshit, why did the FAA or any company let him fly an airplane? Should he have been grounded .. and sent to Siberia with his children? Or maybe executed?

Since Bohan is all Bullshit, I assume that means he could see the lights of Portland coming up either! How in hell did he manage to land the plane there? An accident? 
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 02:19:18 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2454 on: August 04, 2019, 02:23:15 PM »
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I agree, based on Cliff's description. But, when the T33 and 305 united was 305 on V23? I think yes. The west side of V23,  and I think Cliff would accept that. Do you accept that?

Yes that is my understanding. That said, this was by default. Put another way, it just happened to be in V23 and wasn't prescribed to V23. Later, according to Cliff, 305 slipped out of the western boundary of V23 (west of PDX) which was of no concern to him because he had absolutely no say where the jet was supposed to fly. Indeed, 305 owned the sky and could fly any way the pilots chose. Moreover, 305 was flying in a straight path to the Eugene VORTAC.

To fly a straight line to the Eugene VORTAC, all the airline crew would have to do is tune in the Eugene VORTAC, center the needle to indicate that they were flying "TO" the VORTAC, and then fly that heading.

The maps they asked for and needed were IFR related maps and instrument approach procedures that contained the navigational information they needed to fly south.  Normally, airline crews would only have onboard maps and instrument approach procedures related to their scheduled route and nearby areas.  They would not necessarily have maps and procedures for areas that they would never expect to be.  That is, NWA 305 in flying from Minneapolis to Seattle would not have onboard maps for Miami or Los Angeles to cite an extreme example.  And in fact, they did not have maps for San Francisco or Reno either.

Did Cooper plant the money with a  trowel or his hands? Gloves. No gloves? What time of day?  8)

Since Bohan is all Bullshit, why did the FAA or any company let him fly an airplane? Should he have been grounded .. and sent to Siberia with his children? Or maybe executed?

Since Bohan is all Bullshit, I assume that means he could see the lights of Portland coming up either! How in hell did he manage to land the plane there? An accident?

Maybe the co-pilot landed the airplane in Portland.  In making such easily disproved claims, Bohan may having been seeing if he had what it takes to pursue a political career in DC after retiring from airline flying.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2455 on: August 04, 2019, 03:24:29 PM »
Quote
To fly a straight line to the Eugene VORTAC, all the airline crew would have to do is tune in the Eugene VORTAC, center the needle to indicate that they were flying "TO" the VORTAC, and then fly that heading.


Exactly my point. proof of them having been tuned to Battleground vs Eugene when they decided to divert from Portland and turn 15 degree's at Kelso doesn't make sense. they were still tuned to BTG 23 miles DME past the VOR. should of been tuned to Eugene 112.9 at the decision of routing around Portland clear up at Kelso. this sounds consistent with a pilot wanting to stay on V-23 per the agreement prior to takeoff.

I don't think the path was a secret and were given the sky but did decide on V-23. sure, they could of deviated from any location given the fact they had the sky. the totality of evidence doesn't support that.

The further you push the plane west of V-23 parallel with Kelso the closer it gets to Hillsboro and no longer becomes east of it. the plane pretty much has to deviate 15 degree's from centerline of V23 to get east of Hillsboro. airways are 8 miles wide and not 10. it puts it 13 nautical miles plus away from V-23 in certain locations. it also starts to intrude into another airway west of the Columbia. in order to keep a good straight line would be tuning into Eugene. no mention of Eugene until they were almost on top of it.

The map vs FDR should have them scratching there heads because it wouldn't look anything like the map. I'm pretty sure time was on the FDR and obviously direction/heading. the failure of any turns should cause a red flag with the map. I believe they got all the maps/plates needed for the flight. I recall them asking if they got them...
 

Offline Lynn

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2456 on: August 04, 2019, 03:59:52 PM »
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I agree, based on Cliff's description. But, when the T33 and 305 united was 305 on V23? I think yes. The west side of V23,  and I think Cliff would accept that. Do you accept that?
Honestly, when it comes to flight path, I'm entirely happy to defer to pilot expertise/Robert99 here. With the caveat that there are transcripts we simply don't have and that the Feds seem unlikely to make available. Would there be anyone still alive who might have copies of them? Guessing no?

Yes that is my understanding. That said, this was by default. Put another way, it just happened to be in V23 and wasn't prescribed to V23. Later, according to Cliff, 305 slipped out of the western boundary of V23 (west of PDX) which was of no concern to him because he had absolutely no say where the jet was supposed to fly. Indeed, 305 owned the sky and could fly any way the pilots chose. Moreover, 305 was flying in a straight path to the Eugene VORTAC.

To fly a straight line to the Eugene VORTAC, all the airline crew would have to do is tune in the Eugene VORTAC, center the needle to indicate that they were flying "TO" the VORTAC, and then fly that heading.

The maps they asked for and needed were IFR related maps and instrument approach procedures that contained the navigational information they needed to fly south.  Normally, airline crews would only have onboard maps and instrument approach procedures related to their scheduled route and nearby areas.  They would not necessarily have maps and procedures for areas that they would never expect to be.  That is, NWA 305 in flying from Minneapolis to Seattle would not have onboard maps for Miami or Los Angeles to cite an extreme example.  And in fact, they did not have maps for San Francisco or Reno either.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2457 on: August 04, 2019, 04:29:49 PM »
Quote
Yes that is my understanding. That said, this was by default. Put another way, it just happened to be in V23 and wasn't prescribed to V23. Later, according to Cliff, 305 slipped out of the western boundary of V23 (west of PDX) which was of no concern to him because he had absolutely no say where the jet was supposed to fly. Indeed, 305 owned the sky and could fly any way the pilots chose. Moreover, 305 was flying in a straight path to the Eugene VORTAC.

Shortly before takeoff ground control did authorize V-23 at 10,000 as the flight plan all the way to Sacramento. he should of radioed any deviation. it's all on reel #5 in the transcripts where they decide V-23 is the route for the entire flight.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 04:30:26 PM by Shutter »
 
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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2458 on: August 04, 2019, 05:33:19 PM »
I just spoke with Cliff and will clarify some points in a bit. I asked about the 23 miles south of BTG DME and V23 path, etc. As stated, I'll write something up and post it within an hour or so.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2459 on: August 04, 2019, 05:45:00 PM »
This really wouldn't have anything to do with ARTCC to an extent. it's the transcripts report from the pilots showing they were locked onto BTG even after passing the VOR. I fail to see the reasoning for this if they were flying direct to Eugene from Kelso. this would be a pilots decision vs ARTCC.