This flight is entirely different from a basic everyday flight that is directed by controllers and not the pilots.

True again.

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Cliff said today that as a general premise, 'everyone knew that something had happened during the 8:10-8:20 period' because of a sudden increase in communications, especially between 305 and the company.

Another suspicion I had concerning a lot of cross talk with the company and less with artcc allowing gaps in the radio transcripts..

V23 was discussed i believe with the tower and TRACON doesn't seem to be a part of this flight and would be the one's who would of noted the route taken.

Wouldnt Cliff have been party to those discussions or have heard them ?

Cliff is adamant that the PI and NWA Transcripts leave out vital communications that occurred with 305, especially during the 8:10-20 period. Cliff did not use the word "redactions" but when he got started on this part of our conversation I thought I was about to hear something straight out of R99's narrative - then Cliff switched to these comm gaps being due to 'transcribers being overwhelmed, or selective', or he said: "literally not knowing what to do with all of those communications" so sticking to a kind of script, for the intended user! Cliff's characterization surprised me. Ive never heard anyone offer that explanation before!

Finding EU's post here today ... it sounds like EU and I got our nickel's worth today from Mr. Ammerman. Cliff is a great gentleman.

Let me add some comments related to several posts.  Most of this information has been discussed before but some memories need to be refreshed.

While on the ground in Seattle, the airliner talked to the tower on the tower's ground control frequency.  It was cleared to take off on this ground control frequency and told to contact Seattle on a certain frequency.  When it called Seattle ATC, the answering controller was apparently surprised and had to ask them who they were and where they were.  That took a couple of minutes to get things straightened out.  This means that the airliner bypassed any TRACON (or tower and departure controller) controllers who were usually responsible for getting departing traffic into the ATC system.

Also while on the ground in Seattle, the airliner crew apparently was in communication on a radio link with the NWA ground personnel there.  This means that NWA apparently had its own private ground frequency in Seattle.  This was not part of the FAA system and would not be recorded or appear in the FAA radio transcripts.

The FAA tower frequencies and the Seattle ATC frequencies would be recorded on tape automatically.  Those tapes should still exist since they were part of an aircraft "incident".  Some human would then have to listen to those tapes and prepare a typed transcript of those conversations.  As previously discussed on my attempts to get those transcripts released, it is the FBI that prevents the FAA from releasing those tapes.  Three interventions by my US Representative and senior FBI managers were not able to get them released.  So it may take an intervention with the FBI Director and/or Supreme Court if we are ever able to get those complete and unredacted transcripts.

After take off, the airliner crew communicated with NWA personnel in Minneapolis and Seattle over the ARINC system by a voice patch as well as the usual teletype messages.  The voice patch was in real time and a few minutes later a "formatted" version of the same information would come through on the ARINC teletype system.  The air traffic controllers would not have access to that information.

A few years ago, Fred Poynter and his group at the WSHM were given access to the teletype version of those communications.  Fred's group made a study of them and determined that significant deletions had been made in those teletype messages.  That is, entire messages had been deleted.

Thanks to Cliff Ammerman for the information.  Does he know if Gerald H. Osterkamp is still alive?  If so, can Osterkamp be contacted.  He was the Chief of the Seattle ATC facility at the time of the hijacking.

I have still have some questions about the direct to Eugene flight path.  Hopefully, more information will be forthcoming.

Kermit!  Oh, Kermit!!!  You may need to have your medications adjusted.  ADDENDUM:  And based on his last post above, Georger may need to do  the same thing.

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Quote

Cliff said today that as a general premise, 'everyone knew that something had happened during the 8:10-8:20 period' because of a sudden increase in communications, especially between 305 and the company.

Another suspicion I had concerning a lot of cross talk with the company and less with artcc allowing gaps in the radio transcripts..

V23 was discussed i believe with the tower and TRACON doesn't seem to be a part of this flight and would be the one's who would of noted the route taken.

Wouldnt Cliff have been party to those discussions or have heard them ?

Cliff is adamant that the PI and NWA Transcripts leave out vital communications that occurred with 305, especially during the 8:10-20 period. Cliff did not use the word "redactions" but when he got started on this part of our conversation I thought I was about to hear something straight out of R99's narrative - then Cliff switched to these comm gaps being due to 'transcribers being overwhelmed, or selective', or he said: "literally not knowing what to do with all of those communications" so sticking to a kind of script, for the intended user! Cliff's characterization surprised me. Ive never heard anyone offer that explanation before!

Finding EU's post here today ... it sounds like EU and I got our nickel's worth today from Mr. Ammerman. Cliff is a great gentleman.

Let me add some comments related to several posts.  Most of this information has been discussed before but some memories need to be refreshed.

While on the ground in Seattle, the airliner talked to the tower on the tower's ground control frequency.  It was cleared to take off on this ground control frequency and told to contact Seattle on a certain frequency.  When it called Seattle ATC, the answering controller was apparently surprised and had to ask them who they were and where they were.  That took a couple of minutes to get things straightened out.  This means that the airliner bypassed any TRACON (or tower and departure controller) controllers who were usually responsible for getting departing traffic into the ATC system.

Also while on the ground in Seattle, the airliner crew apparently was in communication on a radio link with the NWA ground personnel there.  This means that NWA apparently had its own private ground frequency in Seattle.  This was not part of the FAA system and would not be recorded or appear in the FAA radio transcripts.

The FAA tower frequencies and the Seattle ATC frequencies would be recorded on tape automatically.  Those tapes should still exist since they were part of an aircraft "incident".  Some human would then have to listen to those tapes and prepare a typed transcript of those conversations.  As previously discussed on my attempts to get those transcripts released, it is the FBI that prevents the FAA from releasing those tapes.  Three interventions by my US Representative and senior FBI managers were not able to get them released.  So it may take an intervention with the FBI Director and/or Supreme Court if we are ever able to get those complete and unredacted transcripts.

After take off, the airliner crew communicated with NWA personnel in Minneapolis and Seattle over the ARINC system by a voice patch as well as the usual teletype messages.  The voice patch was in real time and a few minutes later a "formatted" version of the same information would come through on the ARINC teletype system.  The air traffic controllers would not have access to that information.

A few years ago, Fred Poynter and his group at the WSHM were given access to the teletype version of those communications.  Fred's group made a study of them and determined that significant deletions had been made in those teletype messages.  That is, entire messages had been deleted.

Thanks to Cliff Ammerman for the information.  Does he know if Gerald H. Osterkamp is still alive?  If so, can Osterkamp be contacted.  He was the Chief of the Seattle ATC facility at the time of the hijacking.

I have still have some questions about the direct to Eugene flight path.  Hopefully, more information will be forthcoming.

Kermit!  Oh, Kermit!!!  You may need to have your medications adjusted.

Really?

Why blemish a very fine statement above with this? Don't feel guilty for making a fine post! 

Okay, I deleted it.

That's interesting because in every interview Ive done with Cliff he insists - and is firm - 305 WAS NOT EVER a couple of miles outside of the western boundary for V23 proper - OR CLIFF WOULD HAVE BEEN ALARMED AND NOTIFIED HIM.

Based on looking at the map and statements from radar operators as well as pilots the plane was on the east side of V23 from Toledo to nearing the Columbia river. it's the totality one needs to look at that bring things together. if we had conflicting statements with the totality it would then raise questions. I fail to see any to date.

According to the flight path and the eastern edge of Hillsboro would be less than 10 miles. this could very well be considered "very close" I seriously doubt Portland would of missed the plane if you wish to place it further west to line up with the Columbia. it appears were are going right back to where it started...

All I can tell you is what Cliff said. Consider that the location comments aren't meant to convey precise data. Rather, Cliff gave me his estimates of where the jet was at certain times. What was abundantly clear in any case is the belief on the part of him and Captain Scott's friend Catherine that 305 traveled west of downtown Portland and that this was done intentionally. Moreover, Cliff made it clear he cannot explain the FBI map denoting erratic turns left and right because he stated that the T-33 received only one vector all the way down to Eugene. Simply put, both 305 and the T-33 flew in a straight line to Eugene from a point approximately east of Kelso.

All I can tell you is what Cliff said. Consider that the location comments aren't meant to convey precise data. Rather, Cliff gave me his estimates of where the jet was at certain times. What was abundantly clear in any case is the belief on the part of him and Captain Scott's friend Catherine that 305 traveled west of downtown Portland and that this was done intentionally. Moreover, Cliff made it clear he cannot explain the FBI map denoting erratic turns left and right because he stated that the T-33 received only one vector all the way down to Eugene. Simply put, both 305 and the T-33 flew in a straight line to Eugene from a point approximately east of Kelso.

because he stated that the T-33 received only one vector all the way down to Eugene

You mean one instruction to 'vector' ,   'make a turn' ?   Or do you mean Victor not Vector?

What are you saying?


* The T33 took off from PDX and went west then north, then was turned by Cliff to come in behind 305 ... all of this NORTH of the Columbia BEFORE 305 even crossed the Columbia, according to Cliff. So what is this 'vectoring' you are talking about? 

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All I can tell you is what Cliff said. Consider that the location comments aren't meant to convey precise data. Rather, Cliff gave me his estimates of where the jet was at certain times. What was abundantly clear in any case is the belief on the part of him and Captain Scott's friend Catherine that 305 traveled west of downtown Portland and that this was done intentionally. Moreover, Cliff made it clear he cannot explain the FBI map denoting erratic turns left and right because he stated that the T-33 received only one vector all the way down to Eugene. Simply put, both 305 and the T-33 flew in a straight line to Eugene from a point approximately east of Kelso.

because he stated that the T-33 received only one vector all the way down to Eugene

You mean one instruction to 'vector' ,   'make a turn' ?   Or do you mean Victor not Vector?

What are you saying?

My verbiage may or may not be incorrect.

Regardless, when the T-33 was pulled in five miles behind 305 he was given a specific heading that was the same as 305. This heading was never changed. The T-33 and 305 flew in a straight line all the way to Eugene. This according to Cliff.