Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 908784 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2400 on: August 01, 2019, 06:31:20 PM »
Quote
I keep telling you I am giving what I have! I dont know if it is accurate or not as to where Ammerman was physically located. I have no more. Im not an expert in these matters!

I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I'm hoping you are wrong and misunderstood Ammerman. if he did say that he was at Sea-Tac then it presents a problem. that's all.

Another controller from Seattle ARTCC has been found. someone sent it to me and I'm going to look into this further and hope more understanding can be brought forth. he worked there in 1971.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2401 on: August 01, 2019, 06:46:58 PM »
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Another controller from Seattle ARTCC has been found. someone sent it to me and I'm going to look into this further and hope more understanding can be brought forth. he worked there in 1971.

Shutter, let us know how this goes and if he is willing to answer specific questions.  His answers can be off the record if he wishes.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2402 on: August 01, 2019, 07:09:19 PM »
No replies yet. information is new at the moment. hopefully he will reply..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2403 on: August 01, 2019, 07:12:48 PM »
He was a greenhorn starting out in 71 to 93 at Seattle. don't know if he was working on the 24th. he should still have viable information to share.
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2404 on: August 02, 2019, 09:18:24 AM »
I received a reply. I only asked a few questions since I had no idea he would reply....

Hi Dave. 
i started work in 1971 but it was lengthy training program and I was working in the area of southern Oregon.  I have memories of  The hijacking, but not as a controller.  Sorry I don't think I'd be much help.

I have replied further with more questions surround the ARTCC functions in Seattle.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2405 on: August 02, 2019, 01:54:20 PM »
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I received a reply. I only asked a few questions since I had no idea he would reply....

Hi Dave. 
i started work in 1971 but it was lengthy training program and I was working in the area of southern Oregon.  I have memories of  The hijacking, but not as a controller.  Sorry I don't think I'd be much help.

I have replied further with more questions surround the ARTCC functions in Seattle.

Any reply from Matheson, the aviation historian? She should know where Ammerman was physically located. Its a basic fact she should have asked in writing her chapter on Ammerman.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2406 on: August 02, 2019, 02:36:56 PM »
I just talked with Shirlee Matheson - very nice conversation. Turns out she is a graduate of the UI Writer's Workship (MFA program) here,  in 1990! We talked about all kinds of people in the MFA program here, people I know and knew well!

Shirlee says she would have to do a time consuming search for where CA was physically located, the night of the hijacking. She didn't have the information off the top of her head, beyond what she wrote in her book.   

Thank you Shirlee!
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 02:41:23 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2407 on: August 02, 2019, 03:59:17 PM »
Did you ask her if she still had the letter sent to her?

Another reply from the operator I contacted. his memory doesn't recall much (76 years old). he does claim tracon was at the airport and Seattle center was already open which we already know.

"I am going to be of little help.  The TRACON was still at SeaTac.  I do not remember the date the ARTCC opened.  but it was definitely open in 1971.  I recognize the name Cliff Ammerman,  I think he worked it the B area which was northern Oregon.   I'm don't know who to contact to get anymore info.  I'm 76, and it would probably be someone older than me.    I 'm sorry to disappoint you"
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2408 on: August 02, 2019, 04:09:51 PM »
                                 B AREA

The B area controls aircraft in most of Northern Oregon,
from approximately 150 miles off the western coastline east,
roughly to Idaho, between Portland and Eugene, Oregon.
There are four low altitude sectors (Sectors 4, 5, 6 and 34)
controlling the surface up to 24,000 ft and three high altitude
sectors (42, 46 and 16) working traffic at and above 24,000
ft.

Sector 4 works a shelf along the I-5 corridor from Portland,
OR to Olympia WA, below 9000 feet. Sector 6 controls a wide array of traffic departing
from Portland as well as all commercial traffic arriving Portland from the south. Both
sectors provide approach control services to many small airports. Sector 6 is the busiest
low altitude sector in the B area. Sector 5 works Portland departures to the southeast and
supplies approach control services to the Bend-Redmond-Sun River recreational hub.
Sector 34 works traffic arriving and departing Portland to the east.

The B area high altitude sectors are split along north/south lines. Of the
high altitude sectors, Sector 42 is the furthest west and controls traffic
from Seattle and Portland to San Francisco Bay area destinations, as
well as sequencing the Portland arrivals from California into one
stream. Sector 46 is the middle sector. It controls the Portland
departures to the southeast and sequences all Seattle area arrivals
from most California and Nevada airports into one stream. Sector 16
controls the airspace over Eastern Oregon and provides service to
multiple streams of aircraft including Portland departures and arrivals to
the east, Seattle area departures heading to south east and traffic
transiting from the Spokane area to all California destinations. Sector
16 is the busiest high altitude sector in the B area.

There are two approach control facilities within the B-area. Portland Approach controls an
area within 30 miles of the Portland Airport below 13,000 feet; Cascade Approach controls
a similar area at Eugene below 9000 feet. The B area takes responsibility for Cascade
Approach’s airspace at Eugene during the nighttime hours. The Cascade Mountain
Range is dotted with prominent peaks that present a terrain risk to small aircraft.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2409 on: August 02, 2019, 04:11:35 PM »
Sounds like R2 would be in area A

The A Area controls air traffic from Portland,
Oregon (PDX) north to Vancouver, British
Columbia (YVR) and from the Cascade
Mountains west to one hundred miles over the
Pacific Ocean. This airspace is divided into six
non-stratified sectors that serve all users
including commercial flights, general aviation
and the diverse aircraft and activities of local
military bases. One additional sector in the A
area underlies both Whidbey RAPCON and
Seattle TRACON airspace to provide arrival,
departure and en route service over the
Everett, WA area, which includes such diverse
activities as newly produced Boeing Company heavy aircraft and attendees to the
Northwest Experimental Aviation Association Fly-In
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2410 on: August 02, 2019, 04:43:33 PM »
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Did you ask her if she still had the letter sent to her?

Another reply from the operator I contacted. his memory doesn't recall much (76 years old). he does claim tracon was at the airport and Seattle center was already open which we already know.

"I am going to be of little help.  The TRACON was still at SeaTac.  I do not remember the date the ARTCC opened.  but it was definitely open in 1971.  I recognize the name Cliff Ammerman,  I think he worked it the B area which was northern Oregon.   I'm don't know who to contact to get anymore info.  I'm 76, and it would probably be someone older than me.    I 'm sorry to disappoint you"

Yes, she has the letter Cliff sent to her. She has everything from her work with Cliff. It is in an archive at the U of Calgary, if I got that straight.

I just got off the phone with Cliff Ammerman. A long productive conversation. Havent had a chance to write my notes up. Cliff remembered our previous discussion from 2010. He says he was referring to something else which I interpreted him as saying he was located in a building 'below the tower at SeaTac'. He say he was in fact located in the ARTCC building at - Auburn Washington , so Shutter your reference to a facility at Auburn is exactly correct! He worked Sector 4 the evening of the hijacking.

I found Cliff in good health, enjoying life, ......... and I will post more later.   

I have to run. Later.

That should solve the location issue.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 04:45:17 PM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2411 on: August 02, 2019, 07:07:53 PM »
It appears that some news is about to break so I will let you all in on what I have learned in some discussions I’ve had with Cliff Ammerman recently. I have been sitting on this information but decided to go forward with its release now that it appears others have recently reached out to Cliff.

Cliff was controlling the airspace in Sector 4 and Sector 5 on November 24, 1971. He was handed 305 about 10 miles north of Toledo as it entered Sector 4. He explained that this was somewhat complicated by the fact that the controller in Sector 2 attempted to hand 305 off to the controller handling Sector 4 traffic for the higher altitude which would have been normal. However, given that 305 stayed at 10,000 feet it was actually Cliff who would be handling the flight.

Cliff stated that this also explains why the transcripts are missing data. Specifically, he said that when they were transcribed it appears that the person doing the transcription was listening to the tapes from the controller handling the higher altitude of Sector 4 and not the altitude that Cliff was covering and that 305 was actually flying in.

Cliff was located in Auburn. He took over 305 and communicated with the pilots of 305 briefly as the hand off was effected. In addition, Cliff also took over duties for the two F-106 fighters as they entered Sector 4.

Cliff stated that 305 did not have a prescribed flight path. Therefore, his job was to keep an eye on 305 and make certain that no other aircraft got near 305. Also he was tasked with directing the F-106s.

The F-106s never made visual contact with 305. In fact, they trailed at five miles behind from 11,000 feet. Moreover, the F-106s were having a problem flying at such slow speeds. Therefore, they would have to make some S turns occasionally. Cliff explained that the F-106 has onboard radar that enables them to see targets 10 degrees to the left and right for a total scan range of only 20 degrees. This means that as the jets would make their S turns they would lose contact with 305 on radar but regain contact once they came back around.

Not too long after Cliff took over 305 and the F-106s a single T-33 took off from PDX. Cliff directed the T-33 west then north to meet 305. At a point approximately 10 miles north of PDX Cliff had the T-33 swing around in behind 305. The T-33 was placed five miles behind at 11,000 feet. The T-33 never made visual contact with 305.

At this point Cliff directed the F-106s to an altitude of 20,000 feet and 10 miles east of 305. Then all four jets continued south.

Cliff told me that 305 made the turn at Toledo and started heading toward the Battlefield VORTAC. He said 305 was likely west of the V23 centerline at this point. He then stated that at an estimated point east of Kelso that 305 modified its heading by an estimated 15 degrees to the west. He stated this was done so that 305 would pass west of Vancouver and Portland and cutout the “dogleg” in the V23 flight path. He said that 305 headed directly for the Eugene VORTAC from this point east of Kelso.

Cliff also stated that when the T-33 pulled in behind 305 shortly after the new Kelso heading that he gave the T-33 a heading consistent with 305 and that he never modified that heading. In other words, 305 and the T-33 flew in a straight line to the Eugene VORTAC.

Cliff stated that one matter to consider is that an airliner flying at a normal altitude of 33,000 feet would have no trouble seeing VORTACs a great distance away. However, given that 305 was travelling only at 10,000 feet and the weather was murky that this would inhibit the range of VORTAC detection.

He stated that 305 largely stayed within V23 which is 10 miles wide. However, he stated that he believed it flew outside of the western boundary by a small amount (a couple of miles) as the jet was west of PDX. He further stated this was not a concern and that often the navigation of airplanes will differ by a couple of miles from their screens at air traffic control so it isn’t an issue if a jet flies a little out of a set vector. Nonetheless, 305 was not set to stay within V23 anyway so it didn’t matter. Cliff stated that he estimates that 305 travelled near Hillsboro during that part of the flight.

Cliff also mentioned that airliners communicate using VHF and the military uses UHF. However, the switches are toggled so that he can broadcast to both the airliner and the military at the same time. But, they were concerned that Cooper would be able to hear their communication with the military jets. Therefore, he would stand up and un-toggle the switches so he could communicate with the military jets privately. He mentioned that this was labor intensive so at a point somewhere around Kelso or south of Kelso he had 305 switch over to another frequency. Apparently they had a radio tower on Sauvie Island. The other frequency meant that 305 would be communicating with the controller handling the Sector 4 airspace at the lower level—9,000 feet to ground level—even though 305 was flying at 10,000 feet.

Just south of Portland 305 entered Sector 5 which went all the way to Eugene. Cliff was also handling traffic in Sector 5.

Cliff said that as the jets were travelling in a straight line toward the Eugene VORTAC south of Portland that they naturally were merging closer to the V23 center line. He added that as the group was approaching Eugene that the T-33 was getting low on fuel and was turned back to PDX. Also at this time the F-106s stated that they didn’t have that much fuel to continue on much longer so they suggested that they use this opportunity to send the F-106s back to McChord which was done.

Importantly, as I interviewed Cliff I did not tell him of my thoughts regarding the Western Flight Path. I asked him to tell me what happened that night. Moreover, in a later phone call when I explained the FBI flight path he said he was completely unaware of it. In other words, he had no idea that his thoughts about the flight path and the jet flying west of Portland contradicted the FBI’s version of the flight path.

Also, he stated that the FBI never interviewed him. Additionally, he was unaware of the FBI interviewing any of the air traffic controllers in his group.

Finally, Cliff told me that he knows a former Northwest Orient flight attendant named Catherine. This woman was not on 305. However, she knew Captain Scott personally. Catherine stated that Captain Scott told her in later years that he purposely flew the jet west of Portland because he was concerned about the prospect of a bomb being on the jet and the safety of those on the ground.

I don’t think I need to explain what all of this means. That said, it is clear that this first-hand testimony from both Cliff and Catherine vindicates both R99 and me. Yes, it appears that R99 and I were wrong about the jet travelling from Toledo to Canby. Rather, it appears that 305 actually flew from east of Kelso to Eugene--remarkably, just west of both the Ridgefield National Wildlife Refuge and Tena Bar.

Those, ladies and gentleman, are the facts.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 07:14:27 PM by EU »
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2412 on: August 02, 2019, 07:27:59 PM »
Nice EU. this confirms so much I've said over a long period. it was recent that I stated the controllers were actually "spectators" since they didn't really have control of them and were given the sky.

You don't need to see the VORTAC. anyone with instrumentation learns how to follow to and from any given VOR. heading to a VOR would be called a bearing and heading away would be a radial. once you put the frequency in of Battleground you can tell how far away you are from it at takeoff and during the flight. the frequency is 116.60
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 07:36:29 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2413 on: August 02, 2019, 10:21:46 PM »
It also appears no TRACON controllers were not needed since they already had a ceiling of 10,000 and could go anywhere they wanted. Seattle ARTCC took the flight at takeoff. TRACON became obsolete. it still appears they were well within the ballpark as to where the plane was. lots of eye's on the flight going all the way to NORAD.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2414 on: August 02, 2019, 10:45:03 PM »
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It appears that some news is about to break so I will let you all in on what I have learned in some discussions I’ve had with Cliff Ammerman recently. I have been sitting on this information but decided to go forward with its release now that it appears others have recently reached out to Cliff.

Cliff was controlling the airspace in Sector 4 and Sector 5 on November 24, 1971. He was handed 305 about 10 miles north of Toledo as it entered Sector 4. He explained that this was somewhat complicated by the fact that the controller in Sector 2 attempted to hand 305 off to the controller handling Sector 4 traffic for the higher altitude which would have been normal. However, given that 305 stayed at 10,000 feet it was actually Cliff who would be handling the flight.

Cliff stated that this also explains why the transcripts are missing data. Specifically, he said that when they were transcribed it appears that the person doing the transcription was listening to the tapes from the controller handling the higher altitude of Sector 4 and not the altitude that Cliff was covering and that 305 was actually flying in.

Cliff was located in Auburn. He took over 305 and communicated with the pilots of 305 briefly as the hand off was effected. In addition, Cliff also took over duties for the two F-106 fighters as they entered Sector 4.

Cliff stated that 305 did not have a prescribed flight path. Therefore, his job was to keep an eye on 305 and make certain that no other aircraft got near 305. Also he was tasked with directing the F-106s.

The F-106s never made visual contact with 305. In fact, they trailed at five miles behind from 11,000 feet. Moreover, the F-106s were having a problem flying at such slow speeds. Therefore, they would have to make some S turns occasionally. Cliff explained that the F-106 has onboard radar that enables them to see targets 10 degrees to the left and right for a total scan range of only 20 degrees. This means that as the jets would make their S turns they would lose contact with 305 on radar but regain contact once they came back around.

Not too long after Cliff took over 305 and the F-106s a single T-33 took off from PDX. Cliff directed the T-33 west then north to meet 305. At a point approximately 10 miles north of PDX Cliff had the T-33 swing around in behind 305. The T-33 was placed five miles behind at 11,000 feet. The T-33 never made visual contact with 305.

At this point Cliff directed the F-106s to an altitude of 20,000 feet and 10 miles east of 305. Then all four jets continued south.

Cliff told me that 305 made the turn at Toledo and started heading toward the Battlefield VORTAC. He said 305 was likely west of the V23 centerline at this point. He then stated that at an estimated point east of Kelso that 305 modified its heading by an estimated 15 degrees to the west. He stated this was done so that 305 would pass west of Vancouver and Portland and cutout the “dogleg” in the V23 flight path. He said that 305 headed directly for the Eugene VORTAC from this point east of Kelso.

Cliff also stated that when the T-33 pulled in behind 305 shortly after the new Kelso heading that he gave the T-33 a heading consistent with 305 and that he never modified that heading. In other words, 305 and the T-33 flew in a straight line to the Eugene VORTAC.

Cliff stated that one matter to consider is that an airliner flying at a normal altitude of 33,000 feet would have no trouble seeing VORTACs a great distance away. However, given that 305 was travelling only at 10,000 feet and the weather was murky that this would inhibit the range of VORTAC detection.

He stated that 305 largely stayed within V23 which is 10 miles wide. However, he stated that he believed it flew outside of the western boundary by a small amount (a couple of miles) as the jet was west of PDX. He further stated this was not a concern and that often the navigation of airplanes will differ by a couple of miles from their screens at air traffic control so it isn’t an issue if a jet flies a little out of a set vector. Nonetheless, 305 was not set to stay within V23 anyway so it didn’t matter. Cliff stated that he estimates that 305 travelled near Hillsboro during that part of the flight.

Cliff also mentioned that airliners communicate using VHF and the military uses UHF. However, the switches are toggled so that he can broadcast to both the airliner and the military at the same time. But, they were concerned that Cooper would be able to hear their communication with the military jets. Therefore, he would stand up and un-toggle the switches so he could communicate with the military jets privately. He mentioned that this was labor intensive so at a point somewhere around Kelso or south of Kelso he had 305 switch over to another frequency. Apparently they had a radio tower on Sauvie Island. The other frequency meant that 305 would be communicating with the controller handling the Sector 4 airspace at the lower level—9,000 feet to ground level—even though 305 was flying at 10,000 feet.

Just south of Portland 305 entered Sector 5 which went all the way to Eugene. Cliff was also handling traffic in Sector 5.

Cliff said that as the jets were travelling in a straight line toward the Eugene VORTAC south of Portland that they naturally were merging closer to the V23 center line. He added that as the group was approaching Eugene that the T-33 was getting low on fuel and was turned back to PDX. Also at this time the F-106s stated that they didn’t have that much fuel to continue on much longer so they suggested that they use this opportunity to send the F-106s back to McChord which was done.

Importantly, as I interviewed Cliff I did not tell him of my thoughts regarding the Western Flight Path. I asked him to tell me what happened that night. Moreover, in a later phone call when I explained the FBI flight path he said he was completely unaware of it. In other words, he had no idea that his thoughts about the flight path and the jet flying west of Portland contradicted the FBI’s version of the flight path.

Also, he stated that the FBI never interviewed him. Additionally, he was unaware of the FBI interviewing any of the air traffic controllers in his group.

Finally, Cliff told me that he knows a former Northwest Orient flight attendant named Catherine. This woman was not on 305. However, she knew Captain Scott personally. Catherine stated that Captain Scott told her in later years that he purposely flew the jet west of Portland because he was concerned about the prospect of a bomb being on the jet and the safety of those on the ground.

I don’t think I need to explain what all of this means. That said, it is clear that this first-hand testimony from both Cliff and Catherine vindicates both R99 and me. Yes, it appears that R99 and I were wrong about the jet travelling from Toledo to Canby. Rather, it appears that 305 actually flew from east of Kelso to Eugene--remarkably, just west of both the Ridgefield National Wildlife Refuge and Tena Bar.

Those, ladies and gentleman, are the facts.

Great!  Based on a first look at the above, things seem to check out.

If flying directly to the Battleground VORTAC at the Malay Intersection, a 10 to 15 degree turn to the right (west) would put the airliner on a direct line between the Malay Intersection, Newberg VOR/DME, and Eugene VORTAC.

If the airliner flew directly from the Malay Intersection to the Eugene VORTAC, it would pass almost directly over the Scappoose remoted radio site (as described in an earlier post above by me) which is about 8 miles west of Tina Bar.

And it would pass almost directly over the Newberg VOR/DME which is located about 10 miles west of the Canby Intersection.  In fact, Scott would probably fly directly to the Newberg VOR/DME and then directly to the Eugene VORTAC.  Flying direct to those facilities and using his DME would always tell him his exact location.

At 8:18 PM PST, the airliner reported that it was 23 DME miles (which are nautical miles) south of the Battleground VORTAC (which was known as the Portland VORTAC in 1971).  This location is a few miles southwest of Hillsboro.

At 10,000 feet, the airliner would have plenty of ground clearance and well within reception range of the appropriate navigation facilities on the Malay-Eugene segment.

So far, so good.