Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 908746 times)

Offline nickyb233

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2340 on: July 29, 2019, 10:54:12 PM »
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I found it. I will upload it to the vault....here is the section about the photo's...

Much appreciated, there is no audio?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2341 on: July 29, 2019, 10:54:52 PM »
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I found it. I will upload it to the vault....here is the section about the photo's...

Much appreciated, there is no audio?

An audio version was made but only a part of the interview...
 

Offline EU

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    • ERIC ULIS: From the History Channel
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2342 on: July 29, 2019, 11:17:56 PM »
A complete transcript is available on my site at:

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Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2343 on: July 29, 2019, 11:49:15 PM »
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It appears some people lost the ability to search...enjoy, have to go now need to invent the search button for computers  :chr2:

Snowmman November 2018

Here's some detail about the chase planes, from Clifford Ammerman who was working radar control at Sea-Tac the night of the hijack. He was employed by the FAA.
I don't think Clifford Ammerman has been named before.

Ammerman controlled the F-106's that trailed Flight 305. It seems like the T-33 arrived just north of portland, and the F-106's left the immediate trail then to the T-33.

Notably, the F-106's weren't getting control from the SAGE center.

It's interesting the T-33/F-106 handoff occurred just north of Portland, because it means maybe they were switching the trailing planes around at the time Cooper jumped?

in this book

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Here's how Ackermann describes it.

He talks to the 727 pilot and learns of the hijack. Then contacted McChord, which launched two F-106's

He kept them five miles in trail, 1000 ft higher than 305.

Radar on the F-106's was effective only 20 degrees either side of their nose. They had to S turn to stay behind 305,  so if the turns exceeded that, they couldn't keep radar lock on 305.

Just north of Portland, Oregon Air National Guard T-33 joined.

Ammerman then turned the F-106's to the east of the projected track of 305 and then south to parallel the route.

They climbed to 20,000 feet to save fuel. At the same time he positioned the T-33 to 1000 feet above and five miles in trail at a matching speed.

F-106's were still faster than 305, so they did an occasional "orbit"

Military planes used UHF radio, civilian VHF.

Ammerman had to stand up and turn off the VHF while talking to the military on UHF..instructions were going on both frequencies at the same time.

T-33 trailed 305 to Eugene, but then was low on fuel. F-106's returned to McChord because low on fuel also.

Ammerman on radar control, followed 305  from Seattle to south of Medford, OR

Later when 305 entered another air traffic control center, a C-130 picked up the trail at Red Bluff, CA

There was a gap in tracking between Eugene and Red Bluff, in terms of chase planes.

Missed this completely for some reason.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2344 on: July 29, 2019, 11:52:04 PM »
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It doesn't matter because you spoke with Ammerman after she interviewed him. her reference no longer matters since others have spoke with him after her contact.
Am coming late to this, but wouldn't this all be entirely irrelevant? I'm putting all my eggs in with the experienced pilot POV on this, and isn't it pretty much a consensus that on the night in question, from the height in question, flares to spot a jump would have been completely useless anyway? I'm not a jumper, so by all means correct me if I'm wrong.

If it were still 1971, I'd be looking into sporting goods and farming supply stores in the Portland region, as farmers would be the most likely to use dynamite on a civilian basis, and flares would be more commonly employed by outdoor sports types. I'm not convinced Cooper's dynamite was really dynamite going by colour descriptions, but at the same time, that doesn't mean he had any secondary use for the flares beyond making his bomb look real.

The FBI talked to many jumpers, I'm sure they asked about the use of flares. They put a lot of weight into it and brothers from the uegene oregon area being involved. That is why they showed bill mitchell all those photo of uegene suspects and they initially jumped on the marla cooper lead (LD and Dewey were from eugene.) I have also qouted the flights and flyers book as my suspect James Klansnics brother Dick lived in cottage grove at the time which is the very town the flare drops were reported to have happened in.

EU now says Mitchell never said anything about his photo being weighted by suspects at Eugene - so it must be a myth someone started at DZ... ?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2345 on: July 29, 2019, 11:54:35 PM »
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If the book or Ammerman's statement is correct?

So Ammerman was lying to me when he said reports on the incident had been filed ... with FAA, FBI, etc.  ? 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2346 on: July 29, 2019, 11:56:17 PM »
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For the next two years, agents constantly came to visit Mitchell at Oregon State University with “hundreds” of suspect photos of exlusively people from the eugene oregon area. Why only Uegene suspects for two years!? You got to ask yourself why did the fbi give such credence to marla coopers claim? No other report got anywhere near the same attention from the fbi. Marla had a close relationship with FBI case agent Curtis Eng and she said the FBI believed brothers from Eugene were responsible for NORJACK.

What do you base this on? Do you have evidence Mitchell said photo were weighted with suspects in the Eugene area? 
 

Offline nickyb233

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2347 on: July 30, 2019, 12:03:37 AM »
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For the next two years, agents constantly came to visit Mitchell at Oregon State University with “hundreds” of suspect photos of exlusively people from the eugene oregon area. Why only Uegene suspects for two years!? You got to ask yourself why did the fbi give such credence to marla coopers claim? No other report got anywhere near the same attention from the fbi. Marla had a close relationship with FBI case agent Curtis Eng and she said the FBI believed brothers from Eugene were responsible for NORJACK.

What do you base this on? Do you have evidence Mitchell said photo were weighted with suspects in the Eugene area?

His interview with colberts CCT, and what I read from you and I believe Bruce reported this too. What did you base your statement off of?

"During the recent WSHM events, Bill Mitchell remarked that of the suspect photos he was shown
post 11-24, a large number were from the Eugene area. This may relate to the 'Eugene Incident'"
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2348 on: July 30, 2019, 12:09:30 AM »
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For the next two years, agents constantly came to visit Mitchell at Oregon State University with “hundreds” of suspect photos of exlusively people from the eugene oregon area. Why only Uegene suspects for two years!? You got to ask yourself why did the fbi give such credence to marla coopers claim? No other report got anywhere near the same attention from the fbi. Marla had a close relationship with FBI case agent Curtis Eng and she said the FBI believed brothers from Eugene were responsible for NORJACK.

What do you base this on? Do you have evidence Mitchell said photo were weighted with suspects in the Eugene area?

His interview with colberts CCT, and what I read from you and I believe Bruce reported this too. What did you base your statement off of?

"During the recent WSHM events, Bill Mitchell remarked that of the suspect photos he was shown
post 11-24, a large number were from the Eugene area. This may relate to the 'Eugene Incident'"

I have never spoken with Mitchell. When I posted about Mitchell (or anyone else) being shown Eugene photos that would have been based on someone's else's info .... maybe a Smith interview? WSHM info? Something someone else had posted and was common knowledge at the time. The claim he was shown photos weighted toward Eugene suspects is not original with me. I was merely repeating it. 
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 12:11:00 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2349 on: July 30, 2019, 12:13:30 AM »
Ammerman told me the flare incident generated formal paper work - with FAA, FBI, etc. I cant imagine he was making this up. I am not making it up. Is Ammerman still alive? Someone re-interview him! 

It only stand to reason an incident of that kind would generate some kind of paper work.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 12:16:00 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2350 on: July 30, 2019, 12:14:10 AM »
I fail to see a connection by telling a witness where people are from in reference to photo's of possible suspects. would it matter if Cooper lived in Brazil? they want identification. not location....
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2351 on: July 30, 2019, 12:17:06 AM »
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I fail to see a connection by telling a witness where people are from in reference to photo's of possible suspects. would it matter if Cooper lived in Brazil? they want identification. not location....

The issue is did Mitchel say this or not?

Who reported this first back at DZ years ago? Smith? Someone who attended the conference? Someone who talked to Mitchell? It wasnt me. I merely repeated what others posted as fact.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 12:19:11 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2352 on: July 30, 2019, 12:19:25 AM »
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I fail to see a connection by telling a witness where people are from in reference to photo's of possible suspects. would it matter if Cooper lived in Brazil? they want identification. not location....

The issue is did Mitchel say this or not?

I could be wrong but I don't recall it. we have what he said at WSHS. I can ask Colbert or watch the show again. where is the information coming from with the 2011 conference. was there even one that year?
 

Offline nickyb233

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2353 on: July 30, 2019, 12:25:04 AM »
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I fail to see a connection by telling a witness where people are from in reference to photo's of possible suspects. would it matter if Cooper lived in Brazil? they want identification. not location....

I get your point and I agree it doesnt matter where he lived, so maybe the fbi told him matter of factly or he found out some way.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2354 on: July 30, 2019, 12:28:27 AM »
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Ammerman told me the flare incident generated formal paper work - with FAA, FBI, etc. I cant imagine he was making this up. I am not making it up. Is Ammerman still alive? Someone re-interview him! 

It only stand to reason an incident of that kind would generate some kind of paper work.

I tried looking it up years ago, so did Smokin99. if the FBI never interviewed him then how did they know about the incident. perhaps someone could contact airports in the area and look for someone still around from that period. somebody knows something if it occurred..other than Ammerman.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 12:29:00 AM by Shutter »