Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 823608 times)

Offline hom

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #225 on: April 06, 2014, 11:40:12 PM »
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At what point did the fighter jets break off? is it possible the afterburners where seen that nite? if Cooper was on the stairs for several minutes. you would think he could only see from behind. I think it would have to be pretty well timed to guess where you were 40 + minutes into the flight.

He would be able to see forward, but not straight ahead.   He should have been able to tell when the flight made the turns "at" the Mayfield intersection (more like Toledo) AND at the Portland VORTAC.
 

Offline hom

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #226 on: April 06, 2014, 11:51:12 PM »
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I'm just wondering why the flares would be used. Cooper had to have known he was being followed. if he was an experienced jumper, would he need flares for wind direction, or location?

I think there was pretty much concensus at DZ that an experienced jumper would have no use for them, particularly at night.  If one is below you when you jump, the light from it would make it impossible to see anything below it.  It would be pretty dumb to throw one out where you are jumping.  Why tell the world where you are?  If you're commited to a jump, knowing wind direction doesn't do anything for you.  You're gonna go wherever the wind blows you regardless.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #227 on: April 07, 2014, 12:21:55 AM »
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"Just guessing but I don't think you would even see a flare until it was down at about 5000 feet and below that I have no doubt you would see it, especially if there was a cloud layer reflecting its light from above - it would glow red hot and bright. That's my supposition. And if that cloud above it contained ice crystals to disperse the light around, I am sure you would see it and could follow its course ..."

Sounds plausible. the problem I see know is Janet claiming they were being tossed from the back of the plane, or the stairs I believe it was said. should be a simple enough test. take a flare on a back road and light it up. drive away and see where you start to see it fade. one mile is a little over 5,000.

tests like that under all kinds of conditions have been done - reports on the internet.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #228 on: April 07, 2014, 12:26:10 AM »
smokin said:

I'm not offering or hinting at any conclusions, but the only reference or documentation of lights in the sky / flares that I have been able to find, so far, is a record of a meteor shower around the time of November 16, 17.
There was supposed to be quite spectacular "Leonid" meteor showers at a rate of about 170 per hour in November, 1971.

Not saying that they would be mistaken as flares and someone might have been off on their timeline, but it has been documented that meteor showers have been mistaken for UFOs in the past, so there's that.
[/quote]

records for this region were searched with a number of people and nothing was found for this period - 

likewise charts for civil twilight etc were posted at DZ years ago - Im not going through that again. Life is too short...

likewise there are ample photos of flares at 10k, 5k, 2500 ft shot from the ground, on the internet. I posted many of those years ago at DZ ....   there were posts about optical physics .... this is all old hat, frankly. But I can see Smokin accepts nothing ever posted at DZ except by Farflung - fine. Play it again Sam.



« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 01:02:34 AM by georger »
 

Coopsnoop

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #229 on: April 07, 2014, 01:36:59 AM »
a flare............not to reveal your location to the world, but to an individual for ground location and pick-up.  Nothing like having a plan.  Myth vs. Fact?  Well, depends on who has the facts, G.  Hey Bruce, you really turning down Blev?  The Auburn cops were looking forward to meeting you.  :).  Maybe he'll invite Jo instead.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #230 on: April 07, 2014, 05:06:10 AM »
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a flare............not to reveal your location to the world, but to an individual for ground location and pick-up.  Nothing like having a plan.  Myth vs. Fact?  Well, depends on who has the facts, G.  Hey Bruce, you really turning down Blev?  The Auburn cops were looking forward to meeting you.  :).  Maybe he'll invite Jo instead.

I'm tired of rebuilding the wheel. Who knows. Maybe Smokin will come up with something brand new. Leonids? Janet saw a Leonid? Or Janet saw a Coopernid? Facts below and I am done with this. Good luck -

[/i]AMS notes for 1971: The 1971 Leonids were expected to peak during the daylight hours, and counts that were reported to S&T on the mornings of the 17th and 18th were low.  "However, a number of bright fireballs were seen which is typical for this shower."  The highest counts came from two observers watching from Newton, North Carolina on the morning of the 17th.  Between 10:00 and 11:00 UT they made independent hourly counts, the average of which was listed at 27. Low by usual standards. Other observers from around the country generally saw 10 to 20 per hour on the morning of the 17th. Counts in the West to Northwest were low.  In the US 1971 records basically ceased on the 18th.

What the Soviets reported, however, was a significantly stronger display about 10-11 hours earlier . . . and another strong surge of activity two mornings later. This unusual bevy of Leonids was also briefly cited in the IMOs "Handbook For Visual Meteor Observations" edited by Paul Roggemans (1989 Sky Publishing Corp.).  On page 163, for 1971 November 17, an hourly rate of 90 is attributed to "USSR Smirnov but this rate was not recorded for anywhere in the United States"
-- joe rao

Good luck rebuilding the wheel.




« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 05:13:10 AM by georger »
 

Offline hom

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #231 on: April 07, 2014, 02:34:56 PM »
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a flare............not to reveal your location to the world, but to an individual for ground location and pick-up.

Problem is that, regardless of the intent of the person dropping the flare(s), they would very likely be seen by people (like LE) other than accomplices.  There are other possibilities for flares, and there are other possibilities for the plane appearing to be on fire.

Did the plane itself have a flare?  If Coop dropped a flare, maybe it would be for a signal to accomplices--but not to say, "I'm jumping here."
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #232 on: April 07, 2014, 04:49:10 PM »
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a flare............not to reveal your location to the world, but to an individual for ground location and pick-up.

Problem is that, regardless of the intent of the person dropping the flare(s), they would very likely be seen by people (like LE) other than accomplices.  There are other possibilities for flares, and there are other possibilities for the plane appearing to be on fire.

Did the plane itself have a flare?  If Coop dropped a flare, maybe it would be for a signal to accomplices--but not to say, "I'm jumping here."

Leonids radiate from the constellation of Leo. On 11-(17-18)-71 at 8:30pst at Portland, Leo would have been several degrees below the Northern horizon with Leonids radiating as shown in the photo attached. The Janet apparition roughly follows the trajectory shown in red, at a much lower altitude than any Leonids very far above the cloud cover at 5000 feet. The Janet apparition was very likely below 5000 feet drifting north-east to south-west, as I understand her story. If a flare was involved it would have been bright enough to be seen and followed below 5000ft on that night, but not overwhelmingly bright  as for example a Leonid fireball would be, seen by everyone and probably recorded by someone in a multi-State area.
   
 

Coopsnoop

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #233 on: April 07, 2014, 05:07:40 PM »
Wheel's turning perfectly, G. 
 

Coopsnoop

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #234 on: April 07, 2014, 05:09:45 PM »
"I'm LANDING here."   Keep hypothesizing.  It keeps the wrong people confused.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #235 on: April 07, 2014, 06:08:48 PM »
I don't think smokin gave any indication that was the reason for the sightings. it was all she found. I was curious to how much road flares would generate vs military, or flares used for the purpose of aviation, and not flares for road side assistance. If you don't ask, you don't get answers!!
 

Offline smokin99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #236 on: April 07, 2014, 09:38:48 PM »
The post that I responded to was in response to someone posting that there were filed reports (WHERE, WHEN , WHO remain unknown - the statement was not sourced) of flare sightings the week? before the hijacking. I merely posted all that I could find.  I have found no reports in FAA files or newspaper accounts or even the blue book of any flares or lights in the sky in the week before the hijacking except, yes, except for the Leonid meteor showers. I even prefaced it by saying I was making no consensus or judgement that this had anything to do with anything - as I had read the same blurb that Georger referenced in his response. I'm sure all will agree that Google is a wonderful thing (except when they are trying to take over the world and reading your email). I also looked at this site before I posted. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login.
But again, the only reason I posted it at all was because the reference to the meteor shower was all that was all I was able to find relating to lights in the sky in that area in the weeks leading up to the hijacking. Take it as you will.

Wheels are constantly being rebuilt and every aspect of Dan Cooper minutiae is constantly being regurgitated and recompiled and rehashed by every poster here and yon. LOL....yes, there is very little that has not been discussed at length before -- however -- since I don't know of anyone who has solved the case so far -- I guess that will have to do.
And, my contributions, as insignificant as they are, will continue to be offered unless I get kicked out.
One can only hope this sandbox stays free of the cat dung that is so prevalent in other places.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 09:41:16 PM by smokin99 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #237 on: April 07, 2014, 09:57:22 PM »
Don't worry, your contributions are well respected here, by all. I think we all understood your post. I did. I also appreciate efforts to find anything that could help document the event. all we can do is continue to search as time goes by. perhaps some light will surface. lets just keep chugging along and seek out more answers. obviously nobody has all of them, or we wouldn't be here.

I realize things can get edgy to say the least. I hope we can continue the levels of sanity in the Cooper saga....

your post was a valid response. hopefully it will end here.... 8)
 

Offline smokin99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #238 on: April 07, 2014, 10:38:56 PM »
No worries. It's been one of those Mondays. Business trip last week and today was all about being cheek deep in alligators and putting out fires.
 
I have not been able to find any experiments with flares at the distances we are talking about on the internet. I have found you-tube videos but nothing that I can correlate to the criteria for that night.
I do think that no one's memory, especially from forty years ago, is immune to unconscious embellishment. However, far from discounting post-event eye-witness flare accounts out of hand, I would like to know from actual practice whether it is likely that Janet and others saw what they think they saw. An experiment would be a step in that direction.

On the subject of memory....

This is one of the best mini-essays I've seen on memory away from the statistics and neuroscience of it all.....   

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an excerpt......
.....Consider an investigation of flashbulb memories from September 11, 2001. A few days after the tragic attacks, a team of psychologists led by William Hirst and Elizabeth Phelps began interviewing people about their personal experiences. In the years since, the researchers have tracked the steady decay of these personal stories. They’ve shown, for instance, that subjects have dramatically changed their recollection of how they first learned about the attacks. After one year, 37 percent of the details in their original story had changed. By 2004, that number was approaching 50 percent. The scientists have just begun analyzing their ten year follow-up data, but it will almost certainly show that the majority of details from that day are now inventions. Our 9/11 tales are almost certainly better – more entertaining, more dramatic, more reflective of that awful day – but those improvements have come at the expense of the truth. Stories make sense. Life usually doesn’t.

This last part is really important, and bears as well on the limitations of eyewitness testimony. Whenever people witness an event — a fender-bender in the parking lot, an argument between co-workers, the assault on Little Round Top — their perspective is necessarily different from that of other witnesses, and usually incomplete. Human memory is not a simple video recorder that inscribes a fixed and unchanging record of what we see and do; it’s fluid and dynamic process that changes over time. Our brains are wired by evolution and experience to makes sense of all those sensory inputs, to help us understand and react to what we’ve seen. In the process, we fill in gaps and make assumptions that establish a more coherent narrative to ourselves. This is involuntary and mostly unconscious. Such embellishment is not lying or deception, but neither does it reflect actual reality.

 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #239 on: April 08, 2014, 01:26:05 AM »
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No worries. It's been one of those Mondays. Business trip last week and today was all about being cheek deep in alligators and putting out fires.
 
I have not been able to find any experiments with flares at the distances we are talking about on the internet. I have found you-tube videos but nothing that I can correlate to the criteria for that night.
I do think that no one's memory, especially from forty years ago, is immune to unconscious embellishment. However, far from discounting post-event eye-witness flare accounts out of hand, I would like to know from actual practice whether it is likely that Janet and others saw what they think they saw. An experiment would be a step in that direction.

On the subject of memory....

This is one of the best mini-essays I've seen on memory away from the statistics and neuroscience of it all.....   

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
an excerpt......
.....Consider an investigation of flashbulb memories from September 11, 2001. A few days after the tragic attacks, a team of psychologists led by William Hirst and Elizabeth Phelps began interviewing people about their personal experiences. In the years since, the researchers have tracked the steady decay of these personal stories. They’ve shown, for instance, that subjects have dramatically changed their recollection of how they first learned about the attacks. After one year, 37 percent of the details in their original story had changed. By 2004, that number was approaching 50 percent. The scientists have just begun analyzing their ten year follow-up data, but it will almost certainly show that the majority of details from that day are now inventions. Our 9/11 tales are almost certainly better – more entertaining, more dramatic, more reflective of that awful day – but those improvements have come at the expense of the truth. Stories make sense. Life usually doesn’t.

This last part is really important, and bears as well on the limitations of eyewitness testimony. Whenever people witness an event — a fender-bender in the parking lot, an argument between co-workers, the assault on Little Round Top — their perspective is necessarily different from that of other witnesses, and usually incomplete. Human memory is not a simple video recorder that inscribes a fixed and unchanging record of what we see and do; it’s fluid and dynamic process that changes over time. Our brains are wired by evolution and experience to makes sense of all those sensory inputs, to help us understand and react to what we’ve seen. In the process, we fill in gaps and make assumptions that establish a more coherent narrative to ourselves. This is involuntary and mostly unconscious. Such embellishment is not lying or deception, but neither does it reflect actual reality.


Ah yes the memory gambit, again.

Come to think of it, I cant seem to remember who I am! Much less what I did yesterday or the day before.
What is today? Why am I here? I feel the door closing.  :o Sartre was right! Being and Nothingness - ‎Phenomenology - ‎Nausea - then Nothing. The tactics of everything.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 01:33:07 AM by georger »