Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 983852 times)

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1965 on: April 26, 2019, 08:43:43 PM »
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explain the weight of the the plate if it was wood? wood bends and bows? I didn't see "splintered"

Page 37
Table III, Impact Characteristics
Test # 258-20
"Badly bowed and splintered"
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1966 on: April 26, 2019, 08:44:02 PM »
I see a reference to splintered now..it's still too heavy for wood given the size. regardless if it was made of steel. they don't compare to a small one ounce plastic ripped card.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1967 on: April 26, 2019, 08:54:43 PM »
They go into such detail and fail to tell what it's made of. I've never seen wood referred to as plates. it still doesn't match what we are trying to figure out..the characteristics would differ.

Placard 6 x 6 = 1 ounce
Plate 48' x 18" x .50 thick = 44 lbs
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 08:55:04 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1968 on: April 26, 2019, 09:36:49 PM »
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explain the weight of the the plate if it was wood? wood bends and bows? I didn't see "splintered"

Take a look at Test No. 258-20 in table 3 on page 37 of the report.  It lists the "Condition of Plate Following Impact" as "Badly Bowed and Splintered".  Other test in that table list the condition of the plate following impact as being "badly damaged", "badly bowed", "destroyed", "plate split", etc..

The dimensions of the two plates used in the tests are given in table 1 on page 9 of the report as follows:

No. 1, 32 by 27 by 0.69 inches with a weight of 40 pounds.

No. 2, 48 by 18 by 0.50 inches with a weight of 44 pounds.

You were right about the weights and I don't find a reference to the material at this moment but it is certainly not going to be metal.

These plates were dropped from a stationary helicopter at altitude.  What happens to the plates before they start rotating is not relevant here.  It is only the drag coefficient after the rotation starts that applies to the placard.  Remember that the placard goes through the 727's downwash and it is going to be rotating like crazy from that point.

The Sandia Report is available here <https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a395124.pdf>.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 09:38:54 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1969 on: April 26, 2019, 09:39:43 PM »
I was amazed how detailed everything is and yet they failed to describe the test samples?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1970 on: April 26, 2019, 09:48:42 PM »
I see too many variables. it still becomes a theory where the placard went after it left the plane..

I did notice Hicks saying "while in the brush" which would tend to trap things in place. but I don't know about seasonal and what the grounds look like through the year. then what the placard looks like. they made a perfect reproduction of the placard. very good for that period. I did notice the tear was more than I thought. it appears to be glued down to the file paper covering most of the tear. I don't know if they gave the damn thing back. I'll ask Tom. I don't believe it was there when he was looking over the evidence. Hicks also claims to have folded it up before putting it in his pocket. that's extremely thin. perhaps decal thin. Hominid believes it was glued in place.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1971 on: April 26, 2019, 09:54:28 PM »
Quote
These plates were dropped from a stationary helicopter at altitude.  What happens to the plates before they start rotating is not relevant here.  It is only the drag coefficient after the rotation starts that applies to the placard.  Remember that the placard goes through the 727's downwash and it is going to be rotating like crazy from that point.

This would be based on a perfect card. the placard is far from perfect in it's condition. especially, if the tear is as long as shown in the episode of In Search Of..
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 09:59:43 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1972 on: April 26, 2019, 10:09:19 PM »
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I was amazed how detailed everything is and yet they failed to describe the test samples?

It was apparently some kind of very hard wood.

Using the dimensions and weights shown, plate 1 had a density of 116.0 pounds per cubic foot and plate 2 had a density of 176.0 pounds per cubic foot.  This doesn't look realistic.  But in any event, it is only the tumbling drag coefficient that applies to the placard analysis.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1973 on: April 26, 2019, 10:12:28 PM »
Hickory is very hard but I don't know if it's heavy.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1974 on: April 26, 2019, 10:14:08 PM »
A particularly desirable grade of hickory wood is known as calico hickory and this type of wood guarantees the reddish-brown heartwood and the creamy white sapwood on both faces of each piece. ... Hickory is exceptionally heavy, hard, strong and shock resistant, but flexible, with a coarse and straight grain.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1975 on: April 26, 2019, 10:16:43 PM »
The point is this: The placard was found WEST of the FBI flight path. Even if it's found right under the flight path it's a problem for the FBI Flight Path.

Why? Because even though I'm not a scientist, I've been walking the face of Mother Earth for 53 years, and I know when you drop a 1/3 oz. piece of plastic from 10K feet up into a wind of 31 KTS, the damn thing is going to blow with the wind.

R99's analysis shows a drift of about 8SM for the placard. The FBI shows a drift for Cooper of 5.6SM if Cooper opened the parachute immediately. This is commonsense.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1976 on: April 26, 2019, 10:21:45 PM »
did the chute have cuts and rips in it? and can you prove the chute drifted that distance?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 10:22:17 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1977 on: April 26, 2019, 10:24:14 PM »
If the path was actually 2 miles west of the path, now what?
Do we have data on a damaged ripped card?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1978 on: April 26, 2019, 10:27:02 PM »
Actually. the card didn't like heavy wind. I tossed some cards from a lower height than last time but it was windy (around 20 mph) and the cards didn't like the wind.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1979 on: April 26, 2019, 10:55:46 PM »
I asked Tom if he seen the placard at the Seattle office. he just replied with a no...