Coopsnoop
Posts: 45
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #193 on: April 05, 2014, 10:32:01 PM »

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Good on ya, Georger.  I located your grandmom's old Vancouver address and her story corresponds to other witness accounts, inclusive of Janet's.  As you know, I triangulated the witness's accounts and they all added up to the inevitable (at least for myself and Tosaw) the plane took a corrective southerly course from the NE and ended up flying right over downtown Van.  This seems to comport with Andy's version too. The red flame, which your grandmom addresses from her account, seems to be independently confirmed by other sources.  Cooper used the lights of Van/PDX, and the dark outline of the Columbia, as reference points for departure.

Thank God!  Now we can all stop worrying ourselves about the flightpath.

Funny     The fact is we don't know where Emma got her account, if was something she witnessed, others witnessed, or what. What she said on 11-25-71 and later in December 71 (and put into writing), was consistent namely, "When the plane went over here it was on fire. It drifted to the west and faded from view". The report was so fantastical and out of synch with any news reports at the time, family members dismissed Emma's account as an aberration. Later however, Emma's (oldest son) and another family member at Vancouver corroborated Emma's account, but unfortunately nobody here dug deeper. We don't know who the witnesses were, whether they were these self-same family members or somebody else! Then, a possible link surfaced. I discovered that my grand mother's oldest son worked for the same company that Janet and her husband did - at least we think that was the case. So maybe the origin of the story is Janet herself? Apparently Janet say's 'no'. I don't know. But I do know my uncle, Janet, and Janet's husband all worked for Wilhelm Trucking of Portland. It is possible that is where my uncle got the story then conveyed it to Emma, then to others ...  we just don't know what the basis for Emma's and her son's stories were. All of these people are long deceased now...       

That hardly adds up to confirmation of a flight path -

Emma was 75 in 1971; she lived to 101 years at Vancouver. She was a very rational person, so far as I ever knew; she worked as a school teacher or an accountant during her working life and raised two families. She and grandpa owned and operated stock trading companies in addition to her school teaching. Her story saying the "plane was on fire" was so fantastical it was completely out of character with the rest of her personality. But she was insistent she was reporting the facts! I laughed and took her account as a sign of old age, but she was insistent for some reason that her account was true and accurate - I just dropped it and didn't pursue it out of politeness. Her account never changed over the years except she would always add: "I know nobody believes it but it's true". I could easily have gotten to the bottom on this then, but discounted it completely. I never imagined I would be writing this years later! It's just one of those blind allies that never got pursued ...
   

I still have problems with Cooper knowing all of the locations required to do an accurate spot jump. why do we automatically assume he knew where he was at any given time, especially if he didn't give any directions other than Mexico. what proof is there that the cloud coverage was open in the right area's? are we assuming he knows the area by the McChord statement? this could apply with him covering the area where he was going to jump as well.

Did the FBI take any of these statements into account? or is this after the fact. Dona from the Tavern claimed the plane was flying low, and to the east of Amboy. this would be way off V23. much like the other evidence. it's all over the board.

Rataczak said he could 'see the lights of Vancouver coming up'. If he could see them, Cooper could see them. That is all that's required on a normal day. If Rataczak is lying then all bets are off - but Rataczak is a personal witness who was there.

As for "the plane was on fire". The Eugene flare dropping incident from the weekend before is documented - filings made. Himmelsbach was convinced Cooper's bomb was nothing but road flares (color of). Official chatter following 305's hand-off by Eugene went straight to a possible connection between the Eugene Incident and Himmelsbach's flare assessment; that chatter is documented. Then Janet/Emma/etal surface with their story of 'fire in the sky' in the very time slot officials place 305 passing through the Vancouver-Portland area. 'Suits' then visit Janet's family and possibly Emma's family too - that is alleged. Witnesses on flight 305 are shown a healthy sample of photos of people allegedly from the Eugene area, as possible Cooper suspects. These leads were being actively pursued.
Let’s go one step further:

If the witnesses at Vancouver indeed saw Cooper bailing with flares, or dropping flares, in the time slot they say these events happened, is it even possible flight #305 could have ever been far east off V23 near or over the Washougal, and still be back over Vancouver in the time slot assigned to reports there? Moreover, the flare witness report times at Vancouver do fit the time slot of the T33 intercept of #305 south of Portland.

There is no way in hell, Janet or Emma or members of their family knew about the prior flare report at Eugene from the weekend before. Likewise Himmelsbach's assessment that Cooper's bomb was in fact 'flares'. These events/ are completely independent of each other, but may merge in a common nexus, ie. Cooper having and using flares. The FBI very clearly explored a possible connection in gathering and showing Eugene suspects to witnesses who had seen Cooper...

I still have problems with Cooper knowing all of the locations required to do an accurate spot jump. why do we automatically assume he knew where he was at any given time, especially if he didn't give any directions other than Mexico. what proof is there that the cloud coverage was open in the right area's? are we assuming he knows the area by the McChord statement? this could apply with him covering the area where he was going to jump as well.

Did the FBI take any of these statements into account? or is this after the fact. Dona from the Tavern claimed the plane was flying low, and to the east of Amboy. this would be way off V23. much like the other evidence. it's all over the board.

He didn't have to know all the locations.  He didn't necessarily do an accurate spot jump.  Most probably didn't.  If we assume he knew where he was at any given time, then we are wrong.  The directions he gave virtually guaranteed the flight would go V23.  If he found the crew was thinking otherwise, he could have intervened and insisted on it.

Did Dona make an entry to that effect in her diary for 11-24-71?  Who says, "Yeah.  She told me that the next day."?  Evidence has different levels of quality.  40+-year-old memories are virtually useless.   They justify something like, "there's a possibility."

The story of the flares is very interesting. I can't seem to locate anything in the FAA files. I also had someone look up the incident. I would love to back this up with some sort of documentation. I'm just wondering why the flares would be used. Cooper had to have known he was being followed. if he was an experienced jumper, would he need flares for wind direction, or location?

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The fact is we don't know where Emma got her account, if was something she witnessed, others witnessed, or what. What she said on 11-25-71 and later in December 71 (and put into writing), was consistent namely, "When the plane went over here it was on fire. It drifted to the west and faded from view". ..... We don't know who the witnesses were, whether they were these self-same family members or somebody else! Then, a possible link surfaced. I discovered that my grand mother's oldest son worked for the same company that Janet and her husband did - at least we think that was the case. So maybe the origin of the story is Janet herself? Apparently Janet say's 'no'. I don't know. But I do know my uncle, Janet, and Janet's husband all worked for Wilhelm Trucking of Portland. It is possible that is where my uncle got the story then conveyed it to Emma, then to others ...  we just don't know what the basis for Emma's and her son's stories were.......

Emma was 75 in 1971; she lived to 101 years at Vancouver. She was a very rational person, so far as I ever knew; she worked as a school teacher or an accountant during her working life and raised two families. She and grandpa owned and operated stock trading companies in addition to her school teaching. Her story saying the "plane was on fire" was so fantastical it was completely out of character with the rest of her personality. But she was insistent she was reporting the facts! I laughed and took her account as a sign of old age, but she was insistent for some reason that her account was true and accurate ..... Her account never changed over the years except she would always add: "I know nobody believes it but it's true". .. 

It seems to me that she would have been so insistent only if she had seen it herself.  There were things she could have mistakenly thought were "the plane on fire."  But the info about where the plane was, and when, should at least be considered as possibly correct.  Too bad we don't know where she was so we could plot it.

BTW  Is Vern the oldest son, your uncle?  And, do you have that written account?

Yes to all - Vern was her oldest son by her first marriage – let’s take family discussion off line.

I kick myself that I did not get the specifics of Grandma and Vern's stories, but the focus for us here changed from anything related to DB Cooper to grandma's welfare. From January of '72 on we took Emma's story as just a product of a fertile imagination and nothing more, related to her aging. She had a very active life in a church at Vancouver and we wondered if the Cooper story had originated there. It wasn't until years later that I even knew Vern had worked for Wilhelm Trucking... and I did not know or hear Janet's story until decades later after Emma and Vern were both gone.

I will send you an email with more later tonight and we can bring this back to this forum, as appropriate.

       

Georger, checked with Janet again and it appears that the Wilhelm Trucking connection is accurate.  I've now found others who also witnessed a similar visual account, but never came forward to authorities.  Interesting thing, Janet's former husband at the time worked with local county law enforcement.  He was backed-off, and she was backed-off by the locals as well as the FBI.  Tosaw's classified report in '85 and my follow-up confirms this.  Andy's accounting is the best from the cock-pit.  As FE with all-round skills to see what was going on, and in direct communication with the perp, he was in position to remember things.   btw, tell your friend Hominid it was a pleasure to make some calls that he benefitted from.  Nothing like sharing with cordial and thankful individuals.  later, bud.

Vern said he had been "approached" and for me "not to come up here and get involved. We don't want you up here!". Vern's remark raised my hackles. I had no thought whatever of going to Vancouver or anywhere else at the time, especially for anything related to "that crazy hijacking in the State of Washington?!" It was crazy on it's face and lead to concern about Emma's situation, frankly.

But Vern said they had "been approached" presumably by authorities in relation to their story.

This actually caused me to call another family member who worked with the FBI and we discussed this.
The State of Washington was totally out of my cousin's jurisdiction but he called a few cousins to inquire about Emma's welfare and came back to me with the news that Emma and Vern and that whole side of my family were fine and doing well, Grandma active in her church, Vern and his family all fit and doing well ... the net effect for me was to place my Grandmother's story in the category of a myth of some kind ... and from then on when the subject would come up I just listened and laughed and stated: "Grandma, I have ever heard anything like this in the news" and we would move on to other family news ...   

My ultimate concern was Emma .... not this "DB Cooper thing".


 
   

Shut:

From military jumpers, considered experts in their field....................ground orientation at night.  Not so much for wind direction.  They need orientation, so as to know their position after correcting from a night tumble, as well as being able to see the ground approach them.  Don't forget, this was from 1960's military training.  Nothing like a fabulous getaway from a 727 at night, only to end up broken on the ground with a bag of dough.

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Shut:  Flo was the one who saw the "bomb."   "6 or 8 reddish sticks, bundled together that looked like dynamite, with a large battery and wires connected to them."  Isn't it just possible that old Coop might have had another reason to carry these items in preparation for a solo night jump?
Seasoned jumpers from a military background know the reason.  As for "fire in the sky," red flares falling from high altitude at night could present that impression to untrained observers from below and at a distance.

absolutely, I'm not trying to discount the fact. I think a lot of people also believe it was road flares vs dynamite. most dynamite is brown. I'm a skeptic at everything, because you could also claim he used the flares for the simple reason to fool them. anything is possible. I guess the question I would ask is how many jumpers use flares for the purpose of wind direction, or visual use in a night jump? shouldn't Cooper have known the wind direction that night? 

added: I'm sure there is a difference between military flares, and road flares. how well would we see an actual road flare from 10k, unless of course the altitude was in question.

Just guessing but I don't think you would even see a flare until it was down at about 5000 feet and below that I have no doubt you would see it, especially if there was a cloud layer reflecting its light from above - it would glow red hot and bright. That's my supposition. And if that cloud above it contained ice crystals to disperse the light around, I am sure you would see it and could follow its course ...