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Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 983701 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1875 on: April 20, 2019, 12:34:53 AM »
Have to find it again. I'll get back to you..
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1876 on: April 20, 2019, 01:09:46 AM »
The map supplied below was made or dated 12-4-71 sent out of Minneapolis....
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1877 on: April 20, 2019, 01:17:46 AM »
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The map supplied below was made or dated 12-4-71 sent out of Minneapolis....

Where did you get that?  Is there a hi res version you could email - please do if you can.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1878 on: April 20, 2019, 01:22:47 AM »
It's in the FBI vault..part 13 of 13..starting on page 306. you have to download it to view it.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 01:24:20 AM by Shutter »
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1879 on: April 20, 2019, 01:25:56 AM »
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Possibly Paul S. or Harrison?

Possibly got the info from here....

whats the date on that document?  (must run ... am on laundry duty tonight ........ woe is me!)

November 29, 1971.

There are several errors in that document.  The writer apparently does not realize that the SEATAC tower and the Seattle Air Traffic Control Center are entirely separate organizations and that it was the Center, and not the SEATAC tower, that controlled the flight south from just a few seconds after it took off from SEATAC.  The writer also mentions "radar transcripts" when in fact he means the Seattle Center's radio transcripts.  It is those unredacted Center radio transcripts that we have been trying to get without success.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 01:34:50 AM by Robert99 »
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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1880 on: April 20, 2019, 08:27:42 AM »
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The map supplied below was made or dated 12-4-71 sent out of Minneapolis....

This map is interesting because it is different than the other FBI maps. Specifically, the 1972 FBI Jump Zone Map (white) and the FBI Flight Path Map (yellow). So we now have a third map called the December 4 Map (white).

The December 4 Map notes an 8:10 jump time, while the 1972 Map notes an 8:11 jump time. The most likely jump line (A-B) on both the December 4 Map and the 1972 Map are separated by about 6 NM with the December 4 Map showing a primary jump spot north of the Lewis River. Also, both of the white maps show a "most-likely" flight path about 2NM west of the flight path depicted on the yellow map. Not to mention the yellow map shows a turn down center line V23 at 8:12 where as the 1972 map shows the jet continuing almost due south at that point.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 09:06:56 AM by EU »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1881 on: April 20, 2019, 10:48:11 AM »
Things happen for a reason. we can't automatically assume. I haven't had time to look at the map. if they are above the Lewis river as the prime spot then they probably went by the 8:09 time from the FDR showing the "little Bob".

They are trying to piece the flight together. this is 1971 and not today's technology.
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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1882 on: April 20, 2019, 11:34:38 AM »
They went by the 8:10 mark on the December 4 Map. They went by the 8:11 mark on the 1972 Map. I'm not sure what changed and caused them to move the jump back one minute. Nonetheless, that one minute does not account for the 6NM downrange movement of the jump spot.
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Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1883 on: April 20, 2019, 11:51:51 AM »
Rat said he might of jumped 5-10 minutes after the last contact. that puts the possibility to the 8:15 mark.

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Offline andrade1812

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1884 on: April 22, 2019, 07:59:14 PM »
Does anyone have the long/lat coordinates for marks on the FBI map?
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1885 on: April 22, 2019, 09:19:18 PM »
do you want them from the first plot?
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1886 on: April 22, 2019, 09:42:09 PM »
I will start plotting some every night...here are the coords from 7:54 to 8:10

7:54 plot N46°40.12' W122°42.19'
7:55 plot N46°39.13' W122°43.09'
7:56 plot N46°36.24' W122°43.51'
7:57 plot N46°33.18' W122°45.90'
7:58 plot N46°30.12' W122°48.12'
7:59 plot N46°28.33' W122°49.36'
8:00 plot N46°25.27' W122°47.17'
8:01 plot N46°22.14' W122°43.96'
8:02 plot N46°18.07' W122°42.22'
8:03 plot N46°15.10' W122°41.51'
8:05 plot N46°12.03' W122°39.09'
8:06 plot N46°9.07'  W122°39.06'
8:07 plot N46°6.10' W122°38.11'


           ADDED
 8:08 plot N46°3.13' W122°36.96'
 8:09 plot N45°59.09' W122°36.13'
 8:10 plot N45°56.80' W122°36.17'
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 06:46:21 PM by Shutter »
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Offline andrade1812

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1887 on: April 22, 2019, 10:12:12 PM »
Dude, you're awesome. Thank you. :chr2:
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1888 on: April 22, 2019, 10:19:18 PM »
What I've done is put portions of the map in paint and straight line the marks to the degree's on the sides then mark them on Skyvector for the Long./Lat numbers. (vertical and horizontal lines)

I cross check this system by plotting Ed Carlson, silver lake, Portland and Lake Merwin. all the coords matched so these should be pretty accurate to the map. you might want to take a look around the placard. it shows the plane less than 500 feet east of the placard. 8:03 the plane take a southerly path then goes a little to the east at the 8:05 plot.

I used the map that doesn't have the green lines so I could see the radar plots easier..
« Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 10:25:49 PM by Shutter »
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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1889 on: April 23, 2019, 03:24:43 PM »
I'm going to ask the question again to see if perhaps someone who is reading the site privately but not posting has an answer. If so, I am easy to reach via email per the address mentioned at the end of my Daily DB Cooper Bite videos:

In 1971, how was a flight path put together after the fact?

I've read multiple comments that state SAGE radar, along with data from the jet's flight recorder, along with radio transcripts was used to craft the flight path.

If this is true, my question is WHY? If SAGE is the "be-all end-all" why is anything else needed? What does flight recorder data or radio transcript data bring to the party?

This is very important, because if there are multiple components that come together from multiple sources, then all of this data is thrown in the mix to generate the flight path "after the fact," this provides for more opportunities for a mistake to be made.

Anyone? Any actual knowledge of how this flight path was constructed?
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Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 
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