Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 1101274 times)

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #165 on: March 28, 2014, 11:11:50 PM »
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Refer to the attached snip of the "FBI" flightpath plot.  The source data was rounded to whole minutes of latitude and longitude.

Both lines of the large red "x"s west of Portland line up perfectly starting at the Mayfield/Malay Intersection and with both southern ends being at or very near the Canby Intersection.  The points plotted form two lines from the Mayfield/Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection with one line being slightly offset from that intersection.  The points in question lie on one or the other of those two lines.  If the plotted points had been truncated to eliminate fractions of nautical miles, then those lines would either be pointed straight south or they would not all lie on a single line as they do for each of the cases and some of the points would be substantially offset from any direct line between the two points.

From what I can see, the information shown on the maps does not support your idea of rounding to whole minutes of longitude and latitude.  I do not see any evidence of rounding at all.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #166 on: March 29, 2014, 12:46:50 AM »
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Refer to the attached snip of the "FBI" flightpath plot.  The source data was rounded to whole minutes of latitude and longitude.

Both lines of the large red "x"s west of Portland line up perfectly starting at the Mayfield/Malay Intersection and with both southern ends being at or very near the Canby Intersection.  The points plotted form two lines from the Mayfield/Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection with one line being slightly offset from that intersection.  The points in question lie on one or the other of those two lines.  If the plotted points had been truncated to eliminate fractions of nautical miles, then those lines would either be pointed straight south or they would not all lie on a single line as they do for each of the cases and some of the points would be substantially offset from any direct line between the two points.

From what I can see, the information shown on the maps does not support your idea of rounding to whole minutes of longitude and latitude.  I do not see any evidence of rounding at all.

What radar data format would have most likely been used to plot the FBI flight path map? Visual tapes or numerical data in some multivariate format? What variables would have been used to assign a plot?
 
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #167 on: March 29, 2014, 03:46:45 PM »
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which implies ... ? ???  (radar data?). Level of Resolution of what?

I haven't thought much about "implications."  Yeah, resolution of 1 minute of latitude by 1 minute of longitude.  However, here's some facts.

Knowing that the precision (smallness of the differences between data points) is large in relation to the range of data values in which we're interested permits us to say that a plot of the data will look "jerky."  That the plotted points will make it look like the speed would have had to vary wildly even though the actual speed didn't.

Knowing the basic fact about the data permits us to explore how such a plot would vary depending upon the true speed, and thereby draw some valid and useful (though limited) conclusions about the actual positions and groundspeeds from the seemingly fouled up position plot.  See the attached pdf.

Sample of "jerky" at constant groundspeed:
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I think I understand what you are saying here but what I don't understand is the data extraction process that would have resulted in a flight path map, be it FBI or anyone else's. What was the process and Im guessing there were choices in how data was extracted and applied to generate a plot map? But what's the process?

Would they have visual tapes of the screen with some kind of grid on the screen and try and extract timed plot points from that, or was there actual numeric data of some kind which would be converted to timed map plots ?

I dont think this question has ever been addressed thoroughly.. anywhere. Exactly what data needs rounding off and where does the data come from and I assume it's numeric data?

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #168 on: March 29, 2014, 05:43:28 PM »
I'm sure most of you have seen this comment about the sage.....

The SAGE was a real-time, computer based command and control system designed in the late 1950's and fully functional and deployed by 1963 and used up though 1983. This automated control system was used by NORAD for tracking and intercepting enemy bomber aircraft.  In the later versions the system could automatically direct aircraft to an interception by sending instructions directly to the aircraft's autopilot.  The system consisted of 24 Directional Centers around the United States as well as 3 Combat Centers.  Data was collected at each of the directional centers from over 100 different sources such as radar, human volunteers and aircraft sightings.  This information was collated and forwarded via telephone communication lines to one of the three combat centers.  The information was interpreted by the computer and displayed on something totally revolutionary for that time period: a cathode ray tube display screen. The display, while similar to a radar screen, was extremely versatile. The operator of the terminal could pull up past positions of aircraft or missiles, as well as project future locations. In addition, the system used another feature far in advance of its time: a light gun. The gun was used by the operators to point at an aircraft on the screen, and the computer would respond by displaying related identification information about that aircraft. The system has the dubious distinction of holding the record for the world's largest (physical size) computer ever created.


did the F-106's track the plane?

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A comment about the sage I found interesting....

One of the earlier posts on the SAGE website used the SNOWTIME acronym incorrectly. The term stood for SAC-NORAD Operational Weapons Testing Involving Military Electronics. Its primary purpose was not to test SAGE, but rather to test ground-based Army air defense weapons in the US, which in the late 1960s were mostly Nike-Hercules missile units stationed around major population centers and military facilities. In the late 1960s there were roughly 15 defended areas around the country. I was most familiar with the ones on the west coast -- Seattle, San Francisco, and LA.
The exercise was conducted annually, against one defended area at a time. It was conducted late night-early morning to minimize interference with the FAA's air traffic control radars. In the exercise SAC aircraft would fly against the area using their maximum radar jamming capabilities. And the Nike units were allowed to use almost all of their full wartime countermeasures systems to counter the jamming. As someone who served in the San Francisco Nike brigade 1968-1970, I know that it was usually a humbling experience for the Army. I seem to recall that typical results were that Nike units would defeat at best one third of the attacking aircraft. Keep in mind that the Nike mission was to shoot down attacking Soviet bomber flights, each of which was carrying multiple thermonuclear bombs. If just one bomber in a flight completed its mission, the target city would likely have been destroyed. The sad reality was that Nike-Hercules radars were using technology from the 1950s and probably would have been no match for attacking enemy bombers in an actual wartime situation. Fortunately, we never found out for certain if this was the case.

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« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 05:51:19 PM by shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #169 on: March 29, 2014, 06:05:55 PM »
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I'm sure most of you have seen this comment about the sage.....

The SAGE was a real-time, computer based command and control system designed in the late 1950's and fully functional and deployed by 1963 and used up though 1983. This automated control system was used by NORAD for tracking and intercepting enemy bomber aircraft.  In the later versions the system could automatically direct aircraft to an interception by sending instructions directly to the aircraft's autopilot.  The system consisted of 24 Directional Centers around the United States as well as 3 Combat Centers.  Data was collected at each of the directional centers from over 100 different sources such as radar, human volunteers and aircraft sightings.  This information was collated and forwarded via telephone communication lines to one of the three combat centers.  The information was interpreted by the computer and displayed on something totally revolutionary for that time period: a cathode ray tube display screen. The display, while similar to a radar screen, was extremely versatile. The operator of the terminal could pull up past positions of aircraft or missiles, as well as project future locations. In addition, the system used another feature far in advance of its time: a light gun. The gun was used by the operators to point at an aircraft on the screen, and the computer would respond by displaying related identification information about that aircraft. The system has the dubious distinction of holding the record for the world's largest (physical size) computer ever created.


did the F-106's track the plane?

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A comment about the sage I found interesting....

One of the earlier posts on the SAGE website used the SNOWTIME acronym incorrectly. The term stood for SAC-NORAD Operational Weapons Testing Involving Military Electronics. Its primary purpose was not to test SAGE, but rather to test ground-based Army air defense weapons in the US, which in the late 1960s were mostly Nike-Hercules missile units stationed around major population centers and military facilities. In the late 1960s there were roughly 15 defended areas around the country. I was most familiar with the ones on the west coast -- Seattle, San Francisco, and LA.
The exercise was conducted annually, against one defended area at a time. It was conducted late night-early morning to minimize interference with the FAA's air traffic control radars. In the exercise SAC aircraft would fly against the area using their maximum radar jamming capabilities. And the Nike units were allowed to use almost all of their full wartime countermeasures systems to counter the jamming. As someone who served in the San Francisco Nike brigade 1968-1970, I know that it was usually a humbling experience for the Army. I seem to recall that typical results were that Nike units would defeat at best one third of the attacking aircraft. Keep in mind that the Nike mission was to shoot down attacking Soviet bomber flights, each of which was carrying multiple thermonuclear bombs. If just one bomber in a flight completed its mission, the target city would likely have been destroyed. The sad reality was that Nike-Hercules radars were using technology from the 1950s and probably would have been no match for attacking enemy bombers in an actual wartime situation. Fortunately, we never found out for certain if this was the case.

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So again, what type of data (and data format) gets data onto a map? Is it a manual process, automated plotting process .... ? ... what "numbers" need rounding off? My feeling is there is some kind of automated plotter involved that makes a map, when and if someone desires or needs a map?  Is the NWA search map Sluggo calls the FBI Map an instance of a computer plotted map which used McChord's radar data? What old computer language? SNOBOL? This is the same era we would have been using PL1 and other languages for computer plotted charts, (maps), etc... (The boxes of cards for a single run were prodigious!) I used PL1 and several other languages for data crunching here ... it was often so laborious it was almost defeating! MY guess is the military systems were more automated.



 

« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 06:16:51 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #170 on: March 29, 2014, 06:38:10 PM »
quick check says Sage used JOVIAL computer language.

see link. page 3 of the PDF speaks about the 35 mm high speed camera used with SAGE.

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« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 07:16:13 PM by shutter »
 

Offline hom

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #171 on: March 29, 2014, 07:37:19 PM »
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So again, what type of data (and data format) gets data onto a map? Is it a manual process, automated plotting process .... ? ... what "numbers" need rounding off? My feeling is there is some kind of automated plotter involved that makes a map, when and if someone desires or needs a map?  Is the NWA search map Sluggo calls the FBI Map an instance of a computer plotted map which used McChord's radar data? What old computer language? SNOBOL? This is the same era we would have been using PL1 and other languages for computer plotted charts, (maps), etc... (The boxes of cards for a single run were prodigious!) I used PL1 and several other languages for data crunching here ... it was often so laborious it was almost defeating! MY guess is the military systems were more automated.

At the time, the country had an "air defense command" (at some point in time replaced by or absorbed into NORAD).  Their job was to monitor the skies, especially around the periphery of the USA and Canada, for bombers from Russia or China, and to put fighters out to intercept bombers or anything that might be a bomber. 

To do this, they could not just track enemy bombers.  They had to track virtually everything in the air and check off all those planes that were confirmed to be "friendlies."  Whatever was left, then, were the suspected "bogies."

So they constantly tracked everything out toward the horizon, everything that had a transponder in operation, everything with a return signal strong enough to be more than a low altitude "general aviation" private plane. everything They would have been tracking 305 to some degree even if 305 had not been hijacked.

To check off the "friendlies" the command's "direction centers" were in constant contact with FAA air traffic control centers.  They constantly received flight plan data from the centers.  They had hot lines so they could just pick up the phone and talk to flight controllers.  They also had constant communication with direction centers (DCs) for adjacent regions so that known friendlies were passed from one region to another so that the second wouldn't have to go through the whole process of identifying the friendlies that came from the adjacent regions.

The command used "SAGE" to do this tracking.  They got the source data principally from cutting edge radar sites.  The data was processed, then the resulting data was displayed, at the regional DC.  For our flightpath plot, the radar site involved before the flight got down a ways into Oregon was the site at Mt. Hebo, OR.  The DC was DC-12 at McChord.  So I'll refer to them in the following explanation of how the system worked.

If I remember correctly, the radar antenna went around 6 times per minute.  Each time it went around, a computery thing analyzed the video output from the radar set along with precise data (from the antenna sytem) on where the antenna was pointing.  From this analysis the device produced very accurate digital information on the range from the antenna to the "target," the target's azimuth with respect to "true" north, and the precise time at which the range and azimuth were measured.  The device was constantly doing this for practically everything in the sky.

The device would load this location/time info into a magnetic storage drum rotating in sync with the antenna.  The device was constantly loading such info for all the things the radar saw in the sky.  Each turn of the antenna the device also loaded the same kind of data for at least one fixed target at a precisely surveyed location.

When the device put the info on the drum, it sent a message over two parallel telephone lines to the DC at McChord.  The essence of the message was, "Hebo has just made available for you position data for target "x" squawking "y."

Depending upon the speed of a target and what priority the DC placed upon tracking that target, the DC might not immediately respond "send it on over."  In this case, the data stored on the drum for that target would be replaced the next time the antenna swept past the target.  The data was updated in each rotation of the antenna.

Eventually the DC would request the data for our flight 305.  The data would be sent, again, over two parallel telephone circuits.  The part of the device that did this was the world's first modem.

The McChord DC had two digital computers doing exactly the same thing most of the time.  One was "active" and the other "standby."  They did this so that the center wouldn't go dead if a computer failed.  The computers were the world's first operational digital computers.

The computers took the position/time data from Hebo and combined this with data the computer already had on the surveyed location of the Hebo antenna, the error in Hebo's alignment with true north, the known location(s) of the fixed calibration target(s), and the digital model of the earth to calculate location of the target with respect to earth coordinates.

When the coordinates were calculated, they were made available for viewing at the monitors of the various kinds of staff at the DC.  On the monitors, the people would generally see a track of a few past positions and something like the current or latest position.  They could call up the data for whichever target(s) they were interested in.

After calculating positions for a few times for a given target, they would have been able to project position forward in time.  I haven't seen any indication that they actually did this.  They would also have been able to smooth out "jitter" from errors in the data from Hebo.  Again, I don't know if they did.

The calculated coordinates were not recorded.  But the data coming in from Hebo was routinely recorded.  They were also able to record such data for specific targets.  They normally just recorded over the tapes.  But, if someone said "reserve that tape" they would hold it for later analysis.

One important thing about the normal use of the tracking data is that the DC did not need to calculate target positions down to the yard.  All they needed to do is know closely enough where a bogie was that they could get an intercepter fighter close enough that the fighter could see the bogie on its radar or by eyeball.  Getting within half a nautical mile was close enough.

So they had a tape about 305.  The people at the DC had no idea what to do to get 305 position history out of that tape.  They were users of SAGE, not "techies."

Also at McChord was a detachment of techies.  They routinely evaluated proposed changes to the programming.  They routinely did QA checks of SAGE at McChord.  They routinely did analyses related to "incidents."  They were a detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron ("RADES").

In much of the work they did, they would come into the McChord DC and take over the computer that was on standby.  At times they'd run some evaluation version of the programming.  They probably used the computer for running the analysis of the 305 data, because they were quite familiar with the computer.  It is possible, however, that in 1971 they could have used a scientific calculator.

The analysis was calculation of 305 positions at exact minutes (no seconds).  They certainly would have interpolated between positions at known times each side of the exact minutes.  They calculated positions to a precision of 1 minute of latitude and longitude, probably because that's what the SAGE computer normally did because that's as close as the DC needed for its normal operation.

The coordinates were hand plotted on at least two paper charts.  The red crosses do not have the uniformity that would come from a plotting machine.
 

Offline hom

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #172 on: March 29, 2014, 07:44:36 PM »
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page 3 of the PDF speaks about the 35 mm high speed camera used with SAGE.

At least during part of the life of SAGE some of the "control" centers had a "battle control" where the brass sat around and looked at a big, big screen where the bogies and interceptors were watched.  They did this by taking pix of the monitor displays, very quickly processing the film, then projecting onto the rear of a projection screen.  Didn't work very well and they eventually decided they didn't even need the CCs.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #173 on: March 29, 2014, 08:02:16 PM »
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page 3 of the PDF speaks about the 35 mm high speed camera used with SAGE.

At least during part of the life of SAGE some of the "control" centers had a "battle control" where the brass sat around and looked at a big, big screen where the bogies and interceptors were watched.  They did this by taking pix of the monitor displays, very quickly processing the film, then projecting onto the rear of a projection screen.  Didn't work very well and they eventually decided they didn't even need the CCs.



I found some pics of the Sage from McChord a while back. here are the photo's.
 

Offline hom

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #174 on: March 29, 2014, 08:57:08 PM »
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I found some pics of the Sage from McChord a while back. here are the photo's.

I'd have to check to be sure, but I think the first one is the "Q7" computer.  They had another long rack of equipment which was the interface to other sites, including the radar sites.

They had lots of something similar to the other pic.  The monitor cabinet at least.  Bunches of people doing each of several functions, and there were quite a few different functions.  The data each operator saw was selected out of the huge quantity of overall data.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #175 on: March 29, 2014, 09:07:20 PM »
Here is a shot of the McChord Sage Installation.


here is the link with more photo's

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« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 09:11:27 PM by shutter »
 

Offline hom

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #176 on: March 29, 2014, 09:12:57 PM »
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So again, what type of data (and data format) gets data onto a map? Is it a manual process, automated plotting process .... ? ... what "numbers" need rounding off? My feeling is there is some kind of automated plotter involved that makes a map, when and if someone desires or needs a map?  Is the NWA search map Sluggo calls the FBI Map an instance of a computer plotted map which used McChord's radar data? What old computer language? SNOBOL? This is the same era we would have been using PL1 and other languages for computer plotted charts, (maps), etc... (The boxes of cards for a single run were prodigious!) I used PL1 and several other languages for data crunching here ... it was often so laborious it was almost defeating! MY guess is the military systems were more automated.

The flightpath coordinates plotted on the searchzone map are minimal.  Very easily done by hand.  Location of the points onto the topo is very easy.  The topo has two preprinted "+"s of specified lat and lon.  The lat and lon are not on what we see because they are printed along the margins of the topo map.  No need for automation or computers.  The two points of known lat & lon:

1.  westward in the center of sect 15:  45°55'N, 122°40'W

2.  to the east by the quarry just right of center of sect 17: 45°55'N, 122°35'W

ie,  both are on the same lat, 5' difference of longitude
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 10:11:28 PM by hom »
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #177 on: March 30, 2014, 12:35:00 AM »
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So again, what type of data (and data format) gets data onto a map? Is it a manual process, automated plotting process .... ? ... what "numbers" need rounding off? My feeling is there is some kind of automated plotter involved that makes a map, when and if someone desires or needs a map?  Is the NWA search map Sluggo calls the FBI Map an instance of a computer plotted map which used McChord's radar data? What old computer language? SNOBOL? This is the same era we would have been using PL1 and other languages for computer plotted charts, (maps), etc... (The boxes of cards for a single run were prodigious!) I used PL1 and several other languages for data crunching here ... it was often so laborious it was almost defeating! MY guess is the military systems were more automated.

The flightpath coordinates plotted on the searchzone map are minimal.  Very easily done by hand.  Location of the points onto the topo is very easy.  The topo has two preprinted "+"s of specified lat and lon.  The lat and lon are not on what we see because they are printed along the margins of the topo map.  No need for automation or computers.  The two points of known lat & lon:

1.  westward in the center of sect 15:  45°55'N, 122°40'W

2.  to the east by the quarry just right of center of sect 17: 45°55'N, 122°35'W

ie,  both are on the same lat, 5' difference of longitude

What are the dates of the topographical maps that you mention?  What are the lateral and vertical datums that are used in their plotting?  Are you plotting 1971 longitude and latitude positions in WGS84 coordinates?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 12:37:31 AM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #178 on: March 30, 2014, 01:00:39 AM »
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page 3 of the PDF speaks about the 35 mm high speed camera used with SAGE.

At least during part of the life of SAGE some of the "control" centers had a "battle control" where the brass sat around and looked at a big, big screen where the bogies and interceptors were watched.  They did this by taking pix of the monitor displays, very quickly processing the film, then projecting onto the rear of a projection screen.  Didn't work very well and they eventually decided they didn't even need the CCs.


is this what you are talking about with "battle control"

 

Offline hom

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #179 on: March 30, 2014, 01:51:23 AM »
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What are the dates of the topographical maps that you mention?  What are the lateral and vertical datums that are used in their plotting?  Are you plotting 1971 longitude and latitude positions in WGS84 coordinates?

1971 topo.  NAD27 or 29, whatever it was for then.  No.