Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 1102079 times)

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1260 on: November 19, 2017, 02:35:03 PM »
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the foil would be nice to have...I doubt they tried to relate any time frames using the foil. they had the tapes and testimony among others things. this would be something that would pop out in a cold case investigation while searching for things overlooked.

I doubt they did either ... too time consuming unless the Lab that processed this device took the time to look. But, if they had wanted to they could have.

However, "the numerical data" was recovered. Its the data that matters. Those numbers will show the contents of the foil. And they probably did produce some paper graphs to examine. That may have been done by Soderlind and his guys?    One way or another the numerical data exists and they were examining that data for signs of a bump as a distinct artifact in the numbers! 

I grew up working with strain gauges and strain gauge recorded data. This is like a trip down memory lane for me.

The Boeing guy's chart may actually apply at least as a prototype. 
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 02:41:48 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1261 on: November 19, 2017, 02:41:32 PM »
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the foil would be nice to have...I doubt they tried to relate any time frames using the foil. they had the tapes and testimony among others things. this would be something that would pop out in a cold case investigation while searching for things overlooked.

I doubt they did either ... too time consuming unless the Lab that processed this device took the time to look. But, if they had wanted to they could have.

However, "the numerical data" was recovered. Its the data that matters. Those numbers will show the contents of the foil. And they probably did produce some paper graphs to examine. That may have been done by Soderlind and his guys?    One way or another the numerical data exists and they were examining that data for signs of a bump as a distinct artifact in the numbers! 

I grew up working with strain gauges and strain gauge recorded data. This is like a trip down memory lane for me.

That's why I think they have several locations..some error's were probably made, and could still be wrong. to have all of this documentation would be key in finding out where the plane really was when he jumped. so much has changed since 1971. it's ashame we probably will never gain access to the data....
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1262 on: November 19, 2017, 02:44:34 PM »
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the foil would be nice to have...I doubt they tried to relate any time frames using the foil. they had the tapes and testimony among others things. this would be something that would pop out in a cold case investigation while searching for things overlooked.

I doubt they did either ... too time consuming unless the Lab that processed this device took the time to look. But, if they had wanted to they could have.

However, "the numerical data" was recovered. Its the data that matters. Those numbers will show the contents of the foil. And they probably did produce some paper graphs to examine. That may have been done by Soderlind and his guys?    One way or another the numerical data exists and they were examining that data for signs of a bump as a distinct artifact in the numbers! 

I grew up working with strain gauges and strain gauge recorded data. This is like a trip down memory lane for me.

That's why I think they have several locations..some error's were probably made, and could still be wrong. to have all of this documentation would be key in finding out where the plane really was when he jumped. so much has changed since 1971. it's ashame we probably will never gain access to the data....

I dont know that any of this FDR data would give you position - it would narrow down the time of jump as a function of other physical data being recorded. I am 100% positive that is exactly what Soderlind was after. The position of the plane is another matter entirely. Soderlind may have been relying on the (McChord?) radar data for position.

R99 what do you think?  (he will probably be reading this later)

I think we have made some progress here? Somebody has the FDR data!

« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 02:49:07 PM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1263 on: November 19, 2017, 03:08:42 PM »
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Quote
Everything related to the hijacking should have been saved, just as a matter of routine, for some period of time.

The FAA, not the FBI, would be the primary agency to preserve the evidence related to an aircraft accident/incident.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1264 on: November 19, 2017, 03:18:42 PM »
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Quote
Everything related to the hijacking should have been saved, just as a matter of routine, for some period of time.

The FAA, not the FBI, would be the primary agency to preserve the evidence related to an aircraft accident/incident.

thats right ... unless the NWA History people would have a copy? But Bruce Kitt says no. I asked a long time ago. Bruce's comment to me was: "I would love to have those documents!" Bruce has a personal interest in this. 
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1265 on: November 19, 2017, 03:48:38 PM »
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Quote
Everything related to the hijacking should have been saved, just as a matter of routine, for some period of time.

The FAA, not the FBI, would be the primary agency to preserve the evidence related to an aircraft accident/incident.

thats right ... unless the NWA History people would have a copy? But Bruce Kitt says no. I asked a long time ago. Bruce's comment to me was: "I would love to have those documents!" Bruce has a personal interest in this.

Georger, whoever prepared that new map you recently posted stated in the accompanying write-up that they used data from the FDR.  If it was NWA that prepared the map and write-up, and I think it was, then they had a copy of the traces on the FDR foil.

There was not any "digital" data until someone took a very close look at those traces, and wrote down specific values for each trace at some "time" (whatever that means in this context).  Hopefully, they identified the traces correctly and had and used the correct "scales" and values for each trace.

The above was very time consuming and some people probably made a career out of some of the more complex data traces.

In aircraft flight test projects in the 1960s, some data was usually radioed back to the test facility and available to the people in the radio communications room in real time.  But much of the flight test data was recorded on-board the aircraft and then ran through a computer program that reduced the data and applied appropriate corrections to that data, with the result that the engineers received a computer print-out of everything.  But even the computer print-out required a lot of work from the engineers.

The flight test instrumentation was more complex than the data recorded on an FDR, and your available budget determined the instrumentation that you were able to use.  Ever program I ever worked on had a budget that ranged from "tight" to "vastly underfunded".
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1266 on: November 19, 2017, 04:00:23 PM »
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the foil would be nice to have...I doubt they tried to relate any time frames using the foil. they had the tapes and testimony among others things. this would be something that would pop out in a cold case investigation while searching for things overlooked.

I doubt they did either ... too time consuming unless the Lab that processed this device took the time to look. But, if they had wanted to they could have.

However, "the numerical data" was recovered. Its the data that matters. Those numbers will show the contents of the foil. And they probably did produce some paper graphs to examine. That may have been done by Soderlind and his guys?    One way or another the numerical data exists and they were examining that data for signs of a bump as a distinct artifact in the numbers! 

I grew up working with strain gauges and strain gauge recorded data. This is like a trip down memory lane for me.

That's why I think they have several locations..some error's were probably made, and could still be wrong. to have all of this documentation would be key in finding out where the plane really was when he jumped. so much has changed since 1971. it's ashame we probably will never gain access to the data....

I dont know that any of this FDR data would give you position - it would narrow down the time of jump as a function of other physical data being recorded. I am 100% positive that is exactly what Soderlind was after. The position of the plane is another matter entirely. Soderlind may have been relying on the (McChord?) radar data for position.

R99 what do you think?  (he will probably be reading this later)

I think we have made some progress here? Somebody has the FDR data!

The FDR video that Shutter posted above stated that the magnetic direction was recorded.  If so, this would be from the aircraft heading system (not the "whiskey compass") and probably the Horizontal Situation Indicator.  Due to the overall accuracy of such a system, such information should only be used for determining the heading of the aircraft for a few seconds, or maybe a couple of minutes at most, prior to the "event" that is being investigated.

After a few miles down the road, the position of  the aircraft using only the heading changes as explained above, would be essentially worthless. 
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1267 on: November 19, 2017, 04:08:10 PM »
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the foil would be nice to have...I doubt they tried to relate any time frames using the foil. they had the tapes and testimony among others things. this would be something that would pop out in a cold case investigation while searching for things overlooked.

I doubt they did either ... too time consuming unless the Lab that processed this device took the time to look. But, if they had wanted to they could have.

However, "the numerical data" was recovered. Its the data that matters. Those numbers will show the contents of the foil. And they probably did produce some paper graphs to examine. That may have been done by Soderlind and his guys?    One way or another the numerical data exists and they were examining that data for signs of a bump as a distinct artifact in the numbers! 

I grew up working with strain gauges and strain gauge recorded data. This is like a trip down memory lane for me.

That's why I think they have several locations..some error's were probably made, and could still be wrong. to have all of this documentation would be key in finding out where the plane really was when he jumped. so much has changed since 1971. it's ashame we probably will never gain access to the data....

I dont know that any of this FDR data would give you position - it would narrow down the time of jump as a function of other physical data being recorded. I am 100% positive that is exactly what Soderlind was after. The position of the plane is another matter entirely. Soderlind may have been relying on the (McChord?) radar data for position.

R99 what do you think?  (he will probably be reading this later)

I think we have made some progress here? Somebody has the FDR data!

The FDR video that Shutter posted above stated that the magnetic direction was recorded.  If so, this would be from the aircraft heading system (not the "whiskey compass") and probably the Horizontal Situation Indicator.  Due to the overall accuracy of such a system, such information should only be used for determining the heading of the aircraft for a few seconds, or maybe a couple of minutes at most, prior to the "event" that is being investigated.

After a few miles down the road, the position of  the aircraft using only the heading changes as explained above, would be essentially worthless.

... which brings us back to the radar tapes! or at least the full communications transcripts ...THE FULL UNREDACTED TAPES!
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 04:08:56 PM by georger »
 

MeyerLouie

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1268 on: November 19, 2017, 05:05:30 PM »
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Shut, this Engineer Guy is fantastic. Thank you for posting.

Would look good in an Easter suit? Do you want his phone number?  ::)



LOL Georger.  Funny.  Seems like a pretty ordinary, nice guy in the video.  Fantastic?   Might be a bit of an overstatement from what was shown in the video, but what the heck -- some people find fantastic in the most ordinary events --  like some of my hippie friends back in the day.  I remember the way they used to talk -- "Wow man, what a groove!  You're all a bunch of wonderful people!  Peace, love, dove.  Peace, hope, dope.  Far out, dude.  Right on. Groovy."  Sometimes, they just liked sitting around all day drinking wine and talking about Jesus.  Believe me, you don't forget that kind of fantastic.

Meyer
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1269 on: November 20, 2017, 01:09:29 AM »
Fantastic is as fantastic does.

The "Engineer Guy" has a large YouTube channel that is absolutely fantastic. I was thanking Shut for giving us the link to the whole bevy of videos, as they appeared at the end of the "Black Box" vid.

I was mesmerized by the EG's 20-minute analysis of how an aluminum can is made. I had no idea that it takes about 50 separate machine procedures, and 18 million cans are made every minute (or some such statistic) and that 75% of all cans come from recycled aluminum.
 

Offline 377

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1270 on: November 29, 2017, 02:38:07 PM »
Colbert's latest FOIA package has this:

13th page, Seattle SAC to Minneapolis SAC:

'The original and one copy of an Air Force map of the flight path was delivered to Northwest Airlines, Seattle, today to be dispatched on flight twenty four, leaving at five fifty pm, addressed to xxx NW airlines, Minneapolis'

So was the USAF map where it all began map wise?

377

 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1271 on: November 29, 2017, 03:37:16 PM »
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Colbert's latest FOIA package has this:

13th page, Seattle SAC to Minneapolis SAC:

'The original and one copy of an Air Force map of the flight path was delivered to Northwest Airlines, Seattle, today to be dispatched on flight twenty four, leaving at five fifty pm, addressed to xxx NW airlines, Minneapolis'

So was the USAF map where it all began map wise?

377

Note the date: 12/23/71 ......... for future reference.

was delivered to Northwest Airlines, Seattle, .......... Transfer to SAC Minneapolis! From SAC Seattle.

Here is the page you are referring to. Yes, where is the map? No accompanying map shown. 
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 03:41:58 PM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1272 on: November 29, 2017, 03:38:00 PM »
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Colbert's latest FOIA package has this:

13th page, Seattle SAC to Minneapolis SAC:

'The original and one copy of an Air Force map of the flight path was delivered to Northwest Airlines, Seattle, today to be dispatched on flight twenty four, leaving at five fifty pm, addressed to xxx NW airlines, Minneapolis'

So was the USAF map where it all began map wise?

377

Do you have the date those Air Force maps were actually put on the plane to Minneapolis by the FBI?  Or do you have a better identification for the FBI paperwork mentioned above?

Thanks to Georger the date is 12-31-1971.

Other identifying numbers are on Georger's post above and are "DB COOPER-5024" and "FBI File 164-81-1508".
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 03:42:34 PM by Robert99 »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1273 on: November 29, 2017, 03:54:34 PM »
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Colbert's latest FOIA package has this:

13th page, Seattle SAC to Minneapolis SAC:

'The original and one copy of an Air Force map of the flight path was delivered to Northwest Airlines, Seattle, today to be dispatched on flight twenty four, leaving at five fifty pm, addressed to xxx NW airlines, Minneapolis'

So was the USAF map where it all began map wise?

377

Do you have the date those Air Force maps were actually put on the plane to Minneapolis by the FBI?  Or do you have a better identification for the FBI paperwork mentioned above?

Thanks to Georger the date is 12-31-1971.

Other identifying numbers are on Georger's post above and are "DB COOPER-5024" and "FBI File 164-81-1508".

OK, now we have a sequence of maps. The next map transmitted is at 6:59pm on 12/4 from Minneapolis back to Seattle, map crop below ... which is the first dropzone - search map. It looks like MWA took the previously transmitted AF radar fp map (12/23) and added their timing data (pressure bump) to determine a search zone.

BTW I found the cleanest copy so far of the 12/4 NWA search map in the new Gray folio. I copied that map and am cleaning it up further but the quality far exceeds the previous copy I had - will post the whole map tonight as time allows.   
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 03:59:32 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1274 on: November 29, 2017, 05:34:27 PM »
We are getting closer to a map genealogy. I like that.
Still wonder what the hell is on those redacted portions of the radio comms transcript.  :conspiracy: ?

377
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 05:34:43 PM by 377 »