Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 1102234 times)

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1245 on: November 18, 2017, 03:21:49 PM »
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If they looked at the FDR several times it tells me that something is possibly confusing them. what would be on the FDR for them to extend the search area's. would this be pressure spikes, or the fact of them not knowing exactly where the plane was during these readings on the FDR?

The document above suggest a distance of over 25 miles of possible jump times....that's north of the Lewis river all the way down to the Columbia...

It is a mystery to me why they would try to reconstruct the flight path from the data on the FDR.  Much more accurate data would be in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts.

Take a look at the Oakland ATC and Reno tower radio transcripts to see what should be in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts, but had been deleted.

So the pressure spike time would be about the only useful thing available from the FDR.

From the context of the document, it looks more like they were using the FDR to try to time the jump, they were not trying to reconstruct the flight path since they already had it from the radar. What's interesting is that they couldn't get a precise time for the jump from the FDR; in the document they are relying on the cockpit testimony to shorten the window of the jump.

I think that is exactly right - timing is their issue. Is it even possible that FDR did not record things in 'clock time'?

See the attached. Supposedly a three channel pressure recording for a 727 showing stairs open (oscillations) and bump. The time scale is not in clock time! My question to the Rockwell-Boeing guy that supplied this was: 'well what time is this? How do you know the time of an event?' His reply: 'Oh. We would have to correlate this with the clock recorder or flight comms then.'  ::) The Rockwell guy noted further: "oh that was pretty common back in the day". Can this possibly be true!? (dumbfounded)

Is it possible Rataczak's attempt to nail down a time of departure ("about 5 to 10 minutes after we last talked to him...") was the best they could do technically, data-wise? I find that very difficult to believe. But if you take R's statements at face value then they perhaps did not know and have no straightforward way of determining the exact time of Cooper's departure? And what blows my mind about this is the Boeing guy Ive talked to countless times about this finds nothing strange in any of it. He basically is saying: 'well we didn't build the plane to keep time of hijacker's actions'.

This ambivalence is an open hole to hell. But it has plagued this case, apparently since the beginning. I almost dread to post this graph.  ::)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 03:27:27 PM by georger »
 
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Offline andrade1812

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1246 on: November 18, 2017, 03:29:03 PM »
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I almost dread to post this graph.

I'm glad you did, that's fascinating. It's also astounding that they couldn't match the pressure events with the actual time.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1247 on: November 18, 2017, 03:32:51 PM »
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I almost dread to post this graph.

I'm glad you did, that's fascinating. It's also astounding that they couldn't match the pressure events with the actual time.

I can tell you the Boeing guy Im dealing with claims there is nothing unusual about any of this! It just drives me crazy. At one point years ago he finally said to me: 'well that is why this case is a mystery isn't it. Now you know why'. I still don't know if he's just jerking me around or being truthful, but it has driven me crazy trying to find some way around it - - -   

I have to go watch a football game ....................... later.

I think we are looking at a central; factual problem in this whole case ..... and it is real! For some reason they didn't know the time or couldnt determine it, or its a big deep dark secret. 

Add into this this is days AFTER DBC is long gone from wherever he landed. The horse is out of the barn days ago!
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 03:37:10 PM by georger »
 
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Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1248 on: November 18, 2017, 04:31:15 PM »
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If they looked at the FDR several times it tells me that something is possibly confusing them. what would be on the FDR for them to extend the search area's. would this be pressure spikes, or the fact of them not knowing exactly where the plane was during these readings on the FDR?

The document above suggest a distance of over 25 miles of possible jump times....that's north of the Lewis river all the way down to the Columbia...

It is a mystery to me why they would try to reconstruct the flight path from the data on the FDR.  Much more accurate data would be in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts.

Take a look at the Oakland ATC and Reno tower radio transcripts to see what should be in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts, but had been deleted.

So the pressure spike time would be about the only useful thing available from the FDR.

From the context of the document, it looks more like they were using the FDR to try to time the jump, they were not trying to reconstruct the flight path since they already had it from the radar. What's interesting is that they couldn't get a precise time for the jump from the FDR; in the document they are relying on the cockpit testimony to shorten the window of the jump.

I think that is exactly right - timing is their issue. Is it even possible that FDR did not record things in 'clock time'?

See the attached. Supposedly a three channel pressure recording for a 727 showing stairs open (oscillations) and bump. The time scale is not in clock time! My question to the Rockwell-Boeing guy that supplied this was: 'well what time is this? How do you know the time of an event?' His reply: 'Oh. We would have to correlate this with the clock recorder or flight comms then.'  ::) The Rockwell guy noted further: "oh that was pretty common back in the day". Can this possibly be true!? (dumbfounded)

Is it possible Rataczak's attempt to nail down a time of departure ("about 5 to 10 minutes after we last talked to him...") was the best they could do technically, data-wise? I find that very difficult to believe. But if you take R's statements at face value then they perhaps did not know and have no straightforward way of determining the exact time of Cooper's departure? And what blows my mind about this is the Boeing guy Ive talked to countless times about this finds nothing strange in any of it. He basically is saying: 'well we didn't build the plane to keep time of hijacker's actions'.

This ambivalence is an open hole to hell. But it has plagued this case, apparently since the beginning. I almost dread to post this graph.  ::)

First, a bit of history.  Flight Data Recorders and Cockpit Voice Recorders were mandated by the FAA/NTSB with a lot of opposition from the pilot's unions, airlines, and manufacturers.  Cost and what the data would be used for (such as enforcement actions against pilots, etc.) were hotly contested matters, legally and otherwise.  The main reasons given for mandating these recorders was the information they would provide for accident investigators.

Also, the early recorders, which were probably introduced in the early 1960s, had quite limited capability compared to today's recorders.  Perhaps only about 20 or 30 parameters were recorded by the first FDRs and they were recorded on foil drums.

Todays FDRs can record probably hundreds of parameters and save them on solid state equipment.  In fact, the overall system can also send such things as engine performance parameters to the airline and/or engine manufacturer ever minute, or less, in real time.  It was this type of information that was used in trying to locate MH370.

As I have pointed out several times over the years, one of the advantages of getting the actual Seattle ATC radio transcripts is that they have the GMT embedded in the voice tapes.  They could give the times of each radio transmission by ATC or the airliner crew down to the second.

But redacting those Seattle ATC tapes to remove pertinent transmissions is an excellent CYA action.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 04:34:24 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1249 on: November 18, 2017, 04:37:38 PM »
It's the chain of events that we don't have...we have multiple maps and multiple locations he could of jumped. I've been saying it's a timing issue for some time now. the last known position Cooper was heard from is some distance from the possible landing zones. I don't know if they were able to get any timing from the FDR. it records on the foil at 6 inches per hour..

It smells more and more of human error than anything. a lot of shooting from the hip, and then realizing it was wrong. several agents from that period claim they had no idea where he jumped. flight 305 was given permission to do what they had to do. the path is wild, almost as if they are shaking him up, but they do stay with in the 8 mile wide track of the victor..they were quick to radio Cooper "doing something with the stairs" but nothing after that is on any documentation. they were also suppose to flash the exterior lights if they felt he left the plane.

we don't really have any evidence of a possible landing zone unless you examine the money found downstream from where the plane crossed. it would be a huge task trying to figure out where he could of tossed anything he didn't want to jump with since the possibilities have expanded even further.

« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 11:50:38 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1250 on: November 19, 2017, 12:16:20 AM »
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It's the chain of events that we don't have...we have multiple maps and multiple locations he could of jumped. I've been saying it's a timing issue for some time now. the last known position Cooper was heard from is some distance from the possible landing zones. I don't know if they were able to get any timing from the FDR. it records on the foil at 6 inches per hour..

It smells more and more of human error than anything. a lot of shooting from the hip, and then realizing it was wrong. several agents from that period claim they had no idea where he jumped. flight 305 was given permission to do what they had to do. the path is wild, almost as if they are shaking him up, but they do stay with in the 8 mile wide track of the victor..they were quick to radio Cooper "doing something with the stairs" but nothing after that is on any documentation. they were also suppose to flash the exterior lights if they felt he left the plane.

we don't really have any evidence of a possible landing zone unless you examine the money found downstream from where the plane crossed. it would be a huge task trying to figure out where he could of tossed anything he didn't want to jump with since the possibilities have expanded even further.

(1) No briefcase, chute, or anything else save the placard has ever been found ... with all kinds of people searching every available area in all the years since. And yet the placard was found.

(2) I think Ckret talked to a number of people before coming to DZ. I think somebody had told him the time stamps were the weakest link in the timing of the drop. (not the flight path itself)  Examining the time stamps became a major priority for Ckret with Sluggo, Snowmman, etal contributing. That was my impression.
     
I think Ckret divulged the most accurate indicator he had (or knew about), which was "5-10 minutes after our last conversation with ... and the lights of Vancouver were coming up'. It may never get any more accurate than that.

Does anyone know if they saved that FDR or the tape that was in it?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 12:34:56 AM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1251 on: November 19, 2017, 02:02:33 AM »
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It's the chain of events that we don't have...we have multiple maps and multiple locations he could of jumped. I've been saying it's a timing issue for some time now. the last known position Cooper was heard from is some distance from the possible landing zones. I don't know if they were able to get any timing from the FDR. it records on the foil at 6 inches per hour..

It smells more and more of human error than anything. a lot of shooting from the hip, and then realizing it was wrong. several agents from that period claim they had no idea where he jumped. flight 305 was given permission to do what they had to do. the path is wild, almost as if they are shaking him up, but they do stay with in the 8 mile wide track of the victor..they were quick to radio Cooper "doing something with the stairs" but nothing after that is on any documentation. they were also suppose to flash the exterior lights if they felt he left the plane.

we don't really have any evidence of a possible landing zone unless you examine the money found downstream from where the plane crossed. it would be a huge task trying to figure out where he could of tossed anything he didn't want to jump with since the possibilities have expanded even further.

(1) No briefcase, chute, or anything else save the placard has ever been found ... with all kinds of people searching every available area in all the years since. And yet the placard was found.

(2) I think Ckret talked to a number of people before coming to DZ. I think somebody had told him the time stamps were the weakest link in the timing of the drop. (not the flight path itself)  Examining the time stamps became a major priority for Ckret with Sluggo, Snowmman, etal contributing. That was my impression.
     
I think Ckret divulged the most accurate indicator he had (or knew about), which was "5-10 minutes after our last conversation with ... and the lights of Vancouver were coming up'. It may never get any more accurate than that.

Does anyone know if they saved that FDR or the tape that was in it?

Everything related to the hijacking should have been saved, just as a matter of routine, for some period of time.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1252 on: November 19, 2017, 02:26:24 AM »
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It's the chain of events that we don't have...we have multiple maps and multiple locations he could of jumped. I've been saying it's a timing issue for some time now. the last known position Cooper was heard from is some distance from the possible landing zones. I don't know if they were able to get any timing from the FDR. it records on the foil at 6 inches per hour..

It smells more and more of human error than anything. a lot of shooting from the hip, and then realizing it was wrong. several agents from that period claim they had no idea where he jumped. flight 305 was given permission to do what they had to do. the path is wild, almost as if they are shaking him up, but they do stay with in the 8 mile wide track of the victor..they were quick to radio Cooper "doing something with the stairs" but nothing after that is on any documentation. they were also suppose to flash the exterior lights if they felt he left the plane.

we don't really have any evidence of a possible landing zone unless you examine the money found downstream from where the plane crossed. it would be a huge task trying to figure out where he could of tossed anything he didn't want to jump with since the possibilities have expanded even further.

(1) No briefcase, chute, or anything else save the placard has ever been found ... with all kinds of people searching every available area in all the years since. And yet the placard was found.

(2) I think Ckret talked to a number of people before coming to DZ. I think somebody had told him the time stamps were the weakest link in the timing of the drop. (not the flight path itself)  Examining the time stamps became a major priority for Ckret with Sluggo, Snowmman, etal contributing. That was my impression.
     
I think Ckret divulged the most accurate indicator he had (or knew about), which was "5-10 minutes after our last conversation with ... and the lights of Vancouver were coming up'. It may never get any more accurate than that.

Does anyone know if they saved that FDR or the tape that was in it?

Everything related to the hijacking should have been saved, just as a matter of routine, for some period of time.

OK, an actual question. How is this FDR constructed? Is the tape (metal tape) exposed or shielded to all outside forces? Is the tape and drum protected by lead? Is some portion of the tape unshielded as it moved on its drum? I assume the tape and drum are not exposed to the air? ...... I have some tests in mind that might constitute an independent clock.     
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 02:27:31 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1253 on: November 19, 2017, 08:55:42 AM »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1254 on: November 19, 2017, 09:12:03 AM »
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Everything related to the hijacking should have been saved, just as a matter of routine, for some period of time.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1255 on: November 19, 2017, 01:38:11 PM »
Shut, this Engineer Guy is fantastic. Thank you for posting.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1256 on: November 19, 2017, 02:07:56 PM »
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Shut, this Engineer Guy is fantastic. Thank you for posting.

Would look good in an Easter suit? Do you want his phone number?  ::)
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1257 on: November 19, 2017, 02:14:36 PM »
The video has been posted numerous times by me over the years. it's not new to this forum...
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 02:30:30 PM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1258 on: November 19, 2017, 02:18:42 PM »
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Well there is one clock - the device itself. Not sure how accurate a clock but it's 6 inches travel per hour on at least 4 channels. Find an event (could be an electrical event) with a known time and there is your time of oscillations and bump. Sensors and recording pens are strain gauges, electrically powered. Any electrical artifact that can be identified, sourced, and documented provides another clock(s). So, the length of distance between start of oscillations and bump at the rate of 6 inches travel per hour provides the time of the bump/jump based on an independent time mark. For example they reported the oscillation at 8:12pm. The jump came at least a minute later. This recorder will show a distance on the graph between oscillations and bump, as Larry predicted. Two distinct events. See graph which I have crudely changed ...

Five to ten minutes after our last contact with him at 8:05.       

My guess is any variance in the 6"/hr is negligible. What does that come out as? 0.10" per minute? That's a long distance in forensic terms .... 
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 02:29:08 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1259 on: November 19, 2017, 02:27:09 PM »
the foil would be nice to have...I doubt they tried to relate any time frames using the foil. they had the tapes and testimony among others things. this would be something that would pop out in a cold case investigation while searching for things overlooked.