Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 1102239 times)

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1230 on: November 16, 2017, 11:17:42 PM »
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It is different from the FBI map showing the 3 possible paths and different jump scenario's...this might explain why they were camped at Ariel looking in the area above the Lewis river, or north of the river?

There are a few supporting FBI docs around the map ... will gather those together and post em ...... but thanks for recognizing that I even posted the map!  ;)
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1231 on: November 16, 2017, 11:20:31 PM »
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So... Georger's question still stands, has anyone seen this map before?

Nope.  One interesting thing to me is that the write-up states that it used data from the flight data recorder.  I would think the air traffic control people would have better information than that.

My exact same thoughts when I looked the commentary over. But its an interesting map and it may be the first attempt to formalise something ... after the horse was already long gone from the barn! So much for a quick solution! There almost had to be something else before this map... before the FDR had even been removed from the plane? 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 11:23:29 PM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1232 on: November 16, 2017, 11:33:51 PM »
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So... Georger's question still stands, has anyone seen this map before?

Nope.  One interesting thing to me is that the write-up states that it used data from the flight data recorder.  I would think the air traffic control people would have better information than that.

My exact same thoughts when I looked the commentary over. But its an interesting map and it may be the first attempt to formalise something ... after the horse was already long gone from the barn! So much for a quick solution! There almost had to be something else before this map... before the FDR had even been removed from the plane?

The write-up memo is dated 12-6-71 and the map is dated 12-4-71.  So the horse hadn't been gone long.

The Oakland Center radio transcripts were dated 11-30-71, which is apparently the date they were transmitted to the FBI.

The Seattle Center radio transcripts do not have a date on the form transmitting it to the FBI, but it was probably about 12-1-71, maybe give or take a day or so.

So the FBI apparently had all of this paperwork within the space of about one week.

The flight data recorder data was apparently reduced in Minneapolis by NWA.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1233 on: November 16, 2017, 11:34:54 PM »
Carr mentions the 8:10 location but the transcripts state an "Oscillation" occurred, and not the pressure bump. he thought they might of gotten the two mixed up but it appears they didn't...so why did they look south of the Lewis river if they felt he jumped further north?
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1234 on: November 16, 2017, 11:46:57 PM »
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Carr mentions the 8:10 location but the transcripts state an "Oscillation" occurred, and not the pressure bump. he thought they might of gotten the two mixed up but it appears they didn't...so why did they look south of the Lewis river if they felt he jumped further north?

Good question. My brain is finally kicking in tonight:  in these FOIA docs there are maybe 20+ docs on the initial searches, day by day. These first searches and the adjustments in search daily, were being conducted on the basis of info from someone ? This is all before any map, the plane FDR being read (took days to do this), etc etc. Im going to try and put these early search docs in chronological order and see how it fits together with the map of 12/4/71 and see where this comes out ... might be interesting.

And of course we have Bruce's search info to correlate with, which is independent of this.  We also have a third source to consider at some point ...
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 11:49:14 PM by georger »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1235 on: November 16, 2017, 11:51:25 PM »
It's odd to see so many maps by the media always claiming "the original search area" when actually, it was north of the so called "original jump location area" where they started looking and gives reason to why they were using the Ariel Tavern as base. it's very possible the bomb and dummy chute is north of the Lewis river.....
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 11:51:51 PM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1236 on: November 16, 2017, 11:52:47 PM »
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It's odd to see so many maps by the media always claiming "the original search area" when actually, it was north of the so called "original jump location area" where they started looking and gives reason to why they were using the Ariel Tavern as base. it's very possible the bomb and dummy chute is north of the Lewis river.....

damned good point!  :good post:
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1237 on: November 17, 2017, 05:31:42 PM »
12/2/71 they looked at the FDR (again) and suggested 3 miles north and as far south as the Columbia river...the area is rather large and appears they really don't know where he jumped as I've heard agents claim...this is the first report I've seen putting him at the river...
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 08:04:23 AM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1238 on: November 17, 2017, 05:38:39 PM »
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12/2/71 the looked at the FDR (again) and suggested 3 miles north and as far south as the Columbia river...the area is rather large and appears they really don't know where he jumped as I've heard agents claim...this is the first report I've seen putting him at the river...

I saw that .... will find it and post it. As far south as the Columbia!

This may be headed back to where it all began .... at Portland!  :rofl:
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 05:39:31 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1239 on: November 17, 2017, 05:52:59 PM »
SPLASH....
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 08:01:25 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1240 on: November 18, 2017, 08:11:36 AM »
If they looked at the FDR several times it tells me that something is possibly confusing them. what would be on the FDR for them to extend the search area's. would this be pressure spikes, or the fact of them not knowing exactly where the plane was during these readings on the FDR?

The document above suggest a distance of over 25 miles of possible jump times....that's north of the Lewis river all the way down to the Columbia...
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 09:05:41 AM by Shutter »
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1241 on: November 18, 2017, 12:30:24 PM »
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If they looked at the FDR several times it tells me that something is possibly confusing them. what would be on the FDR for them to extend the search area's. would this be pressure spikes, or the fact of them not knowing exactly where the plane was during these readings on the FDR?

The document above suggest a distance of over 25 miles of possible jump times....that's north of the Lewis river all the way down to the Columbia...

It is a mystery to me why they would try to reconstruct the flight path from the data on the FDR.  Much more accurate data would be in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts.

Take a look at the Oakland ATC and Reno tower radio transcripts to see what should be in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts, but had been deleted.

So the pressure spike time would be about the only useful thing available from the FDR.
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1242 on: November 18, 2017, 01:41:58 PM »
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If they looked at the FDR several times it tells me that something is possibly confusing them. what would be on the FDR for them to extend the search area's. would this be pressure spikes, or the fact of them not knowing exactly where the plane was during these readings on the FDR?

The document above suggest a distance of over 25 miles of possible jump times....that's north of the Lewis river all the way down to the Columbia...

It is a mystery to me why they would try to reconstruct the flight path from the data on the FDR.  Much more accurate data would be in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts.

Take a look at the Oakland ATC and Reno tower radio transcripts to see what should be in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts, but had been deleted.

So the pressure spike time would be about the only useful thing available from the FDR.

From the context of the document, it looks more like they were using the FDR to try to time the jump, they were not trying to reconstruct the flight path since they already had it from the radar. What's interesting is that they couldn't get a precise time for the jump from the FDR; in the document they are relying on the cockpit testimony to shorten the window of the jump.
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1243 on: November 18, 2017, 02:34:09 PM »
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If they looked at the FDR several times it tells me that something is possibly confusing them. what would be on the FDR for them to extend the search area's. would this be pressure spikes, or the fact of them not knowing exactly where the plane was during these readings on the FDR?

The document above suggest a distance of over 25 miles of possible jump times....that's north of the Lewis river all the way down to the Columbia...

It is a mystery to me why they would try to reconstruct the flight path from the data on the FDR.  Much more accurate data would be in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts.

Take a look at the Oakland ATC and Reno tower radio transcripts to see what should be in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts, but had been deleted.

So the pressure spike time would be about the only useful thing available from the FDR.

From the context of the document, it looks more like they were using the FDR to try to time the jump, they were not trying to reconstruct the flight path since they already had it from the radar. What's interesting is that they couldn't get a precise time for the jump from the FDR; in the document they are relying on the cockpit testimony to shorten the window of the jump.

If the aircraft track presented on the so-called "FBI map" is for the hijacked airliner, then why didn't the controllers make some effort to get the airliner back on the airway centerline and to keep it from wandering all over the place while in the Portland area?

It is to be noted that neither the Seattle ATC, Oakland ATC or Reno tower, nor the airliner crew, indicated any problems with the airliner flying a given track.  The airliner crew indicated that they did have problems descending at certain vertical speeds when making turns, but this was not related to the track of the airplane in level flight.

What do those red "X" marks on the west, southwest, and south sides of Portland, which are also shown on the "FBI map", mean to you?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 02:38:09 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1244 on: November 18, 2017, 02:58:04 PM »
Quote
If the aircraft track presented on the so-called "FBI map" is for the hijacked airliner, then why didn't the controllers make some effort to get the airliner back on the airway centerline and to keep it from wandering all over the place while in the Portland area?

It is to be noted that neither the Seattle ATC, Oakland ATC or Reno tower, nor the airliner crew, indicated any problems with the airliner flying a given track.  The airliner crew indicated that they did have problems descending at certain vertical speeds when making turns, but this was not related to the track of the airplane in level flight.

What do those red "X" marks on the west, southwest, and south sides of Portland, which are also shown on the "FBI map", mean to you?

Yes, the yellow "FBI map" is an odd document and I have my own opinions about the various markings on it. And my opinions don't really matter since none of us know who made the map, when it was made and what they were using as a primary source. However, we now have a second flight path map from the FBI, and it favors a flight path generally along victor 23. This map, from the context of the documents, was being used to determine search locations within weeks of the hijacking. So whatever the source for the new maps, the FBI had enough confidence in it to be used for investigative purposes, which is telling.