Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 1102337 times)

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1200 on: September 24, 2017, 02:59:21 AM »
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I knew several pilots who flew for World Airways. It did a lot of military contract flying but wasn't like
SAT or Air America. Different animal. Ed Daly, World's hard drinking and publicity seeking CEO never saw a
camera or microphone that he didn't like. That wouldn't do for a CIA front operation. World pilot Ed Herring in the mid 1970s gave me a personal tour of Dalys executive plane, a luxurious Convair Twin, probably a 440. It had a big onboard liquor inventory. World hauled cargo and people but didn't directly engage in military ops. SAT and Air America did. Prof. Joe Leeker of U Texas knows more about covert CIA cover airlines than anybody. He doesn't include World in the same spook universe as SAT and AIr America.

377

Good to know, Three-Seven-Seven. Thanks.
 

Offline RaoulDuke24

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1201 on: November 05, 2017, 09:39:36 PM »
So for all the flight path gurus here, what do you make of the latest Tom Colbert "parachute finding" stuff as it relates to the flight path and projected drop zone? In order for it to hold any water, the jump would've had to been made near La Center. In your opinion (and based on what we know about the pressure bump), any chance Cooper could've jumped in this area? 
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 09:40:57 PM by RaoulDuke24 »
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1202 on: November 06, 2017, 12:00:37 AM »
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So for all the flight path gurus here, what do you make of the latest Tom Colbert "parachute finding" stuff as it relates to the flight path and projected drop zone? In order for it to hold any water, the jump would've had to been made near La Center. In your opinion (and based on what we know about the pressure bump), any chance Cooper could've jumped in this area?

Basically none based on time and position.

The time of the jump was about 8:12 PM give or take a minute or two.  All indications are that the airliner was off V-23 and deliberately bypassing Portland on the west side.  And at 8:12 PM it would be almost directly over Tina Bar.

Also, an analysis of the free fall of the aft stair placard indicates that the airliner was already well west of the V-23 centerline when it separated from the aircraft.  And that supports the jump being near Tina Bar as well.
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1203 on: November 06, 2017, 09:54:00 PM »
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So for all the flight path gurus here, what do you make of the latest Tom Colbert "parachute finding" stuff as it relates to the flight path and projected drop zone? In order for it to hold any water, the jump would've had to been made near La Center. In your opinion (and based on what we know about the pressure bump), any chance Cooper could've jumped in this area?

Basically none based on time and position.

The time of the jump was about 8:12 PM give or take a minute or two.  All indications are that the airliner was off V-23 and deliberately bypassing Portland on the west side.  And at 8:12 PM it would be almost directly over Tina Bar.

Also, an analysis of the free fall of the aft stair placard indicates that the airliner was already well west of the V-23 centerline when it separated from the aircraft.  And that supports the jump being near Tina Bar as well.

Tom Kaye is in the other camp on this one, right? He believes in the original DZ?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1204 on: November 07, 2017, 12:14:58 AM »
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So for all the flight path gurus here, what do you make of the latest Tom Colbert "parachute finding" stuff as it relates to the flight path and projected drop zone? In order for it to hold any water, the jump would've had to been made near La Center. In your opinion (and based on what we know about the pressure bump), any chance Cooper could've jumped in this area?

Basically none based on time and position.

The time of the jump was about 8:12 PM give or take a minute or two.  All indications are that the airliner was off V-23 and deliberately bypassing Portland on the west side.  And at 8:12 PM it would be almost directly over Tina Bar.

Also, an analysis of the free fall of the aft stair placard indicates that the airliner was already well west of the V-23 centerline when it separated from the aircraft.  And that supports the jump being near Tina Bar as well.

Tom Kaye is in the other camp on this one, right? He believes in the original DZ?

Correct. Tom Kaye, at the 2011 DB Cooper Symposium in Portland, stated that the placard was found in V-23, and based upon wind currents confirmed that 305 was in V-23 when it passed by the Castle Rock/Silver Lake region.

Obviously if that is true, then R99's T-Bar impact hypothesis - with the concurrent Mandalay-Canby Intersect scenario - can not be correct.
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1205 on: November 07, 2017, 01:27:33 AM »
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So for all the flight path gurus here, what do you make of the latest Tom Colbert "parachute finding" stuff as it relates to the flight path and projected drop zone? In order for it to hold any water, the jump would've had to been made near La Center. In your opinion (and based on what we know about the pressure bump), any chance Cooper could've jumped in this area?

Basically none based on time and position.

The time of the jump was about 8:12 PM give or take a minute or two.  All indications are that the airliner was off V-23 and deliberately bypassing Portland on the west side.  And at 8:12 PM it would be almost directly over Tina Bar.

Also, an analysis of the free fall of the aft stair placard indicates that the airliner was already well west of the V-23 centerline when it separated from the aircraft.  And that supports the jump being near Tina Bar as well.

Tom Kaye is in the other camp on this one, right? He believes in the original DZ?

Correct. Tom Kaye, at the 2011 DB Cooper Symposium in Portland, stated that the placard was found in V-23, and based upon wind currents confirmed that 305 was in V-23 when it passed by the Castle Rock/Silver Lake region.

Obviously if that is true, then R99's T-Bar impact hypothesis - with the concurrent Mandalay-Canby Intersect scenario - can not be correct.

Unsurelock,

Bruce Smith already knows this despite his statements above, so I am repeating it for your benefit.

You can go to Tom Kaye's web page and read an analysis that I did for him at his request.  Tom Kaye was taken to the location where the placard was found by members of the family that found it.  Tom recorded the GPS coordinates of that location and those coordinates were used in the calculations that I did for him.

Tom and I discussed the factors affecting the free fall of the placard at great length.  This included the effect of rain drops and tumbling on the descent rate of the placard.  The actual winds aloft and their direction were not known so they had to be estimated.  Every effort was made to be "conservative", meaning that the actual distance travelled by the placard would be greater than the distance calculated.

The end result was that the placard apparently separated from the airliner at a point that was well west of the centerline of V-23 and which was consistent with the airliner bypassing Portland on the west side.

Other factors such as pilot statements, ground observers, dispatch of the chase aircraft, and all other relevant information is also consistent with the airliner bypassing Portland on the west side.

Bruce Smith's speculations are baseless.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 01:28:35 AM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1206 on: November 08, 2017, 12:30:26 AM »
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...Bruce Smith's speculations are baseless.


My statements to Unsure above are not speculations, nor are they baseless. I was simply repeating what Tom Kaye publicly stated in 2011 at the Portland Symposium.

What is speculative at this point, Robert, is your belief that Flight 305 was far to the west of V-23 - well, wait, you only say that 305 was well to the west of the center line of V-23, which is only 6-8 miles wide to begin with, so where are you saying 305 actually was?

You may be correct that it was "well to the west of the center line," but it is still speculative as of tonight, and if true it only gives us a slight notion of where it might be. It could still have been in V-23.

Also, the placard has not been conclusively determined to be from Flight 305. It probably is, since the plane was missing its placard upon returning to Boeing Field for repairs, but it is not definitive. Yes, I know everyone says that the placard was Coop's and blew into the Silver Lake area when DB opened the stairs, but it is not 100% certain.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 12:42:13 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1207 on: November 08, 2017, 12:37:04 AM »
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...Other factors such as pilot statements, ground observers, dispatch of the chase aircraft, and all other relevant information is also consistent with the airliner bypassing Portland on the west side...


That's quite a mouthful there, Robert. Can you give us the specifics on:

1. What ground observers are you citing?
2. Where were they? What did they see?
3. Dispatch of what chase planes - I assume the 106s out of McCord, the T-33 out of Mountain Home, and Himms' helo - and what was their flight path?
4. Statements of what pilot(s)? Scotty? Rataczak? Anderson? Exactly what did they say, and to whom did they say it to?

Just askin'.

Lastly, what is the connection between bypassing Portland on the west and flying in the right-hand side of V-23 near Castle Rock?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 12:45:26 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1208 on: November 08, 2017, 01:19:56 AM »
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...Bruce Smith's speculations are baseless.


My statements to Unsure above are not speculations, nor are they baseless. I was simply repeating what Tom Kaye publicly stated in 2011 at the Portland Symposium.

What is speculative at this point, Robert, is your belief that Flight 305 was far to the west of V-23 - well, wait, you only say that 305 was well to the west of the center line of V-23, which is only 6-8 miles wide to begin with, so where are you saying 305 actually was?

You may be correct that it was "well to the west of the center line," but it is still speculative as of tonight, and if true it only gives us a slight notion of where it might be. It could still have been in V-23.

Also, the placard has not been conclusively determined to be from Flight 305. It probably is, since the plane was missing its placard upon returning to Boeing Field for repairs, but it is not definitive. Yes, I know everyone says that the placard was Coop's and blew into the Silver Lake area when DB opened the stairs, but it is not 100% certain.

Bruce,

Assuming that the airliner flew direct from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection, it would never be more than eight miles west of the centerline of V-23 anywhere between those two points.  So the airliner, and placard as well, would be within the lateral limits of V-23 for a considerable part of that diversion.

Where is your evidence that the airliner returned to "Boeing Field" for repairs?  Everything I have seen says it returned to SEATAC.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1209 on: November 08, 2017, 02:29:20 AM »
The flight to Boeing Field from Reno took place the next day, as I recall info that was posted at the 2013 COOPER conference. I also believe I have read it in GG's book, or his documents, and elsewhere. I'll check.

What documentation do you have that says it went to SeaTac? The repairs were made there? By Boeing? Seems strange.

Along those lines, it is my understanding that the crew flew the next day from Reno to SeaTac on another NWO aircraft, or to MPS, I forget which at the moment. Flight #55 stands out in my memory for some reason.

Also a bit hazy is when 305 went to Langley for the seat removal. GG told me that occurred before the plane went to Boeing, which I find strange, too.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1210 on: November 08, 2017, 02:30:53 AM »
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Bruce,

Assuming that the airliner flew direct from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection, it would never be more than eight miles west of the centerline of V-23 anywhere between those two points.  So the airliner, and placard as well, would be within the lateral limits of V-23 for a considerable part of that diversion.


Good to know.

Are answers to my others questions coming any time soon? Ground Obs, pilot testimony, etc...

Just askin'.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 02:31:27 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1211 on: November 15, 2017, 02:28:47 PM »
New FP-Search Map predates Jan 9, 72 NWA Search Map

Have any of you seen this map before?

The NWA Search map we have always used was published Jan 9, 1972. What may be a first iteration of this map has surfaced in the new FBI FOIA files. The tag on photo attached identifies the page location of this map in the Colbert FBI files. This map was sent to Seattle by NWA at 6:05pm on the evening of Dec 4th, 1971. Copies of the map were then distributed to FBI offices on 12/6/71 (see next post).

The copy of the LaCenter Sectional map we have known is dated: published Jan 9, 1972.

See below. The map fax copy here is of very poor quality.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 03:00:59 PM by georger »
 
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georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1212 on: November 15, 2017, 02:32:42 PM »
more on new 12/4/71 NWA search map. See 12/6/71 Seattle office distribution memo -

Storage space limitation prevents the posting of the full sized version of this map.

Does anyone have a better full-sized copy of this map?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 03:02:17 PM by georger »
 
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Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1213 on: November 15, 2017, 11:18:02 PM »
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Bruce,

Assuming that the airliner flew direct from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection, it would never be more than eight miles west of the centerline of V-23 anywhere between those two points.  So the airliner, and placard as well, would be within the lateral limits of V-23 for a considerable part of that diversion.


Good to know.

Are answers to my others questions coming any time soon? Ground Obs, pilot testimony, etc...

Just askin'.

Bruce, if you have been paying attention for the past eight years or so, then you know where you can find the answers to your questions.  They have been answered numerous times here by a number of people, including myself.

You told me once that you were an "investigative reporter".  So you should be overqualified for the simple task of reading some of the threads here.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1214 on: November 16, 2017, 01:43:51 AM »
Comparison of later FBI flight path map with 12/4/71 NWA (first iteration?) flight path map ?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 01:44:28 AM by georger »
 
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