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It's all speculation. we are to assume that Cooper knew exactly when to go down the stairs to see the lights from the dam? he gives no indication to timing anything. how would he have known they would fly close to it anyway? then of course the cloud coverage.

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My contention is that Cooper had no indication of timing anything, he had no idea of when or where he was going to jump, and he didn't even care.  I remember discussion on the DZ Forum about Tina helping Cooper get the aft stairs to go down.  Tina gave no indication that Cooper was agitated, irritated, or panicked about the situation.  In fact, he seemed cool, calm, and collected.  Some people thought Cooper's original intention was to jump as soon as possible after leaving Seattle -- like around Tacoma (which is close to McChord AFB) or Olympia.  Getting the aft stairs to deploy took longer than expected.  No big deal, Cooper wasn't even annoyed.  Tina didn't indicate he seemed rushed about anything -- he got agitated in Seattle when the fueling took so long, that's pretty much it.  When he was cutting parachute chord and strapping the money bag to his waist, Tina didn't say he seemed rushed or panicked.  Either this guy had nerves of steel and ice running through his veins, or he was specially trained to do this sort of thing -- like a special ops, creme de la creme, CIA ops, Navy Seals kind of guy -- or both.  For him, it was just another day at the office.

As for using the lights of Vancouver as his guide -- that seems pretty far-fetched.  With all that cloud cover (I was there that night, remember -- lots of rain and clouds for sure), the Vancouver lights would have done little to help him pinpoint a drop zone -- he could have landed anywhere -- on I-5, on someone's roof, in the River, on the north end of Vancouver, or the south end -- where?.  On that night, he couldn't have known anything with any certainty.

Why wasn't he worried about when and where he would actually jump?  He didn't seem to be overly concerned about those matters.  Possible explanation: he had lots of help on the ground, several pickup points along V-23 -- it didn't really matter where he jumped out -- help was only a stone's throw away.  Was he a hired hand?   Did he grow old in the witness protection program?  A possibility -- why not?

NOT FOR SAILSHAW!

Meyer, under this scenario above, how do you account for the money near Vancouver at Tina Bar?

Yes, Georger, that's the great conundrum-how did the money get to Tina Bar?   I don't feel so bad because nobody else has really definitively figured that one out either.  Here's an idea:  When Cooper jumped, he got into a spin and had to cut the money loose just to save himself.  The money ends up in the Columbia River watershed somewhere and eventually ends up at Tina Bar.  Yeah, right -- I don't really know.  That's the baffling thing for my little theory here, and for most theories, actually.

However, there is a case for the "hired hand" theory on other fronts.  My list is not exhaustive, but here are a few points to consider:

(1)  How Cooper got to PDX totally undetected can be easily done by the CIA or FBI -- it's what they do.

(2)  The FBI has been evasive, inconclusive, and dismissive about most everything from the very beginning.  They don't pursue anything because they've already got their guy is.  The list goes on and on of how the FBI dropped the ball.  The biggest ball they dropped, in my opinion, is losing the cigarette butts.  Tell me again how this was just an honest mistake, how that was just an oversight.  It was done on purpose, period!  The one piece of evidence that would have definitively identified Cooper got lost.  Bullshit!  No way!  You will never get me to believe that it was an honest mistake in a million years. 

(3)  The scenario I laid out earlier where Cooper just didn't seem to give a rat's ass about when or where to jump.  He had lots of help.  The one closest to the radio transmission from Cooper was the one who picked him up, probably within an hour of the jump.

(4)  The money itself -- why was it so readily available in Seattle?  I know, the banks set aside funds specifically for this purpose.  But Cooper picked a rather short flight in which to commit his deed -- Portland to Seattle and back, that's not very far -- a 35 minute jaunt.  It's as if Cooper knew he could get what he wanted in that short amount of time.  He could have picked a longer flight that would have taken more time, thereby providing more time to get the loot assembled and delivered and get the parachutes transported.  It's as if he already knew, and the only way he could have known was if he were told, informed, briefed, and coached. 

(5)  No one before or since 11/24/71 has gotten away with skyjacking a commercial aircraft.  It's the only successful one in history.  Now think about that...let's put some math to it.  The empirical probability that Cooper would be successful in his hijacking attempt, before 11/24/71, was 0% --zero, zippo, nada, nothing.  In other words, pulling off this caper was a virtual impossibility. But many say he probably made it -- let's say half say he did, half say he didn't.  So, the probability went from 0% to 50+%.  That's a pretty amazing jump in the odds.  That only could have happened if he got significant assistance.  Something that was impossible became certain -- the scales of probability were dramatically tipped.  Something significant must have intervened.

You have to remember that at that time, in the early 1970s, there were many hijackings -- like or or two a month.  The airline industry was dragging its feet on beefing up security and safer air travel.  Some say they didn't remember hearing about the hijackings, because they lived on the east coast, so it must not have been that big of a deal.  It was a big deal at the time.  In fact, it was fast becoming a major crisis.  The airline industry was dragging its feet on beefing up security.  Who's to say the government didn't take a back door approach to solving the crisis?  Is it really all that far-fetched to think that Nixon talked to the CIA Director and directed him to put his best man on the job -- to carry out something so crazy as successfully hijacking a plane so as to get the airline industry to get off its dead ass and start making air travel safer?   Maybe, then again, maybe not....

Meyer
 

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It's all speculation. we are to assume that Cooper knew exactly when to go down the stairs to see the lights from the dam? he gives no indication to timing anything. how would he have known they would fly close to it anyway? then of course the cloud coverage.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

My contention is that Cooper had no indication of timing anything, he had no idea of when or where he was going to jump, and he didn't even care.  I remember discussion on the DZ Forum about Tina helping Cooper get the aft stairs to go down.  Tina gave no indication that Cooper was agitated, irritated, or panicked about the situation.  In fact, he seemed cool, calm, and collected.  Some people thought Cooper's original intention was to jump as soon as possible after leaving Seattle -- like around Tacoma (which is close to McChord AFB) or Olympia.  Getting the aft stairs to deploy took longer than expected.  No big deal, Cooper wasn't even annoyed.  Tina didn't indicate he seemed rushed about anything -- he got agitated in Seattle when the fueling took so long, that's pretty much it.  When he was cutting parachute chord and strapping the money bag to his waist, Tina didn't say he seemed rushed or panicked.  Either this guy had nerves of steel and ice running through his veins, or he was specially trained to do this sort of thing -- like a special ops, creme de la creme, CIA ops, Navy Seals kind of guy -- or both.  For him, it was just another day at the office.

As for using the lights of Vancouver as his guide -- that seems pretty far-fetched.  With all that cloud cover (I was there that night, remember -- lots of rain and clouds for sure), the Vancouver lights would have done little to help him pinpoint a drop zone -- he could have landed anywhere -- on I-5, on someone's roof, in the River, on the north end of Vancouver, or the south end -- where?.  On that night, he couldn't have known anything with any certainty.

Why wasn't he worried about when and where he would actually jump?  He didn't seem to be overly concerned about those matters.  Possible explanation: he had lots of help on the ground, several pickup points along V-23 -- it didn't really matter where he jumped out -- help was only a stone's throw away.  Was he a hired hand?   Did he grow old in the witness protection program?  A possibility -- why not?

NOT FOR SAILSHAW!

Meyer, under this scenario above, how do you account for the money near Vancouver at Tina Bar?

Yes, Georger, that's the great conundrum-how did the money get to Tina Bar?   I don't feel so bad because nobody else has really definitively figured that one out either.  Here's an idea:  When Cooper jumped, he got into a spin and had to cut the money loose just to save himself.  The money ends up in the Columbia River watershed somewhere and eventually ends up at Tina Bar.  Yeah, right -- I don't really know.  That's the baffling thing for my little theory here, and for most theories, actually.

However, there is a case for the "hired hand" theory on other fronts.  My list is not exhaustive, but here are a few points to consider:

(1)  How Cooper got to PDX totally undetected can be easily done by the CIA or FBI -- it's what they do.

(2)  The FBI has been evasive, inconclusive, and dismissive about most everything from the very beginning.  They don't pursue anything because they've already got their guy is.  The list goes on and on of how the FBI dropped the ball.  The biggest ball they dropped, in my opinion, is losing the cigarette butts.  Tell me again how this was just an honest mistake, how that was just an oversight.  It was done on purpose, period!  The one piece of evidence that would have definitively identified Cooper got lost.  Bullshit!  No way!  You will never get me to believe that it was an honest mistake in a million years. 

(3)  The scenario I laid out earlier where Cooper just didn't seem to give a rat's ass about when or where to jump.  He had lots of help.  The one closest to the radio transmission from Cooper was the one who picked him up, probably within an hour of the jump.

(4)  The money itself -- why was it so readily available in Seattle?  I know, the banks set aside funds specifically for this purpose.  But Cooper picked a rather short flight in which to commit his deed -- Portland to Seattle and back, that's not very far -- a 35 minute jaunt.  It's as if Cooper knew he could get what he wanted in that short amount of time.  He could have picked a longer flight that would have taken more time, thereby providing more time to get the loot assembled and delivered and get the parachutes transported.  It's as if he already knew, and the only way he could have known was if he were told, informed, briefed, and coached. 

(5)  No one before or since 11/24/71 has gotten away with skyjacking a commercial aircraft.  It's the only successful one in history.  Now think about that...let's put some math to it.  The empirical probability that Cooper would be successful in his hijacking attempt, before 11/24/71, was 0% --zero, zippo, nada, nothing.  In other words, pulling off this caper was a virtual impossibility. But many say he probably made it -- let's say half say he did, half say he didn't.  So, the probability went from 0% to 50+%.  That's a pretty amazing jump in the odds.  That only could have happened if he got significant assistance.  Something that was impossible became certain -- the scales of probability were dramatically tipped.  Something significant must have intervened.

You have to remember that at that time, in the early 1970s, there were many hijackings -- like or or two a month.  The airline industry was dragging its feet on beefing up security and safer air travel.  Some say they didn't remember hearing about the hijackings, because they lived on the east coast, so it must not have been that big of a deal.  It was a big deal at the time.  In fact, it was fast becoming a major crisis.  The airline industry was dragging its feet on beefing up security.  Who's to say the government didn't take a back door approach to solving the crisis?  Is it really all that far-fetched to think that Nixon talked to the CIA Director and directed him to put his best man on the job -- to carry out something so crazy as successfully hijacking a plane so as to get the airline industry to get off its dead ass and start making air travel safer?   Maybe, then again, maybe not....

Meyer

All good points Meyer - thanks.

The bulk of the hijackings at the time were south ... Cuban etc. If Cooper was Latin the northeast was an opportunity waiting to happen. If Cooper was political, again an opportunity waiting and the milk run flight late day an opportunity. Cooper himself allegedly said: "right place and right time" so he may have been looking-waiting for the right opportunity. He apparently had been following flight schedules and aircraft type - confirmed at the airport if it was a 727 en route (otherwise he might have walked away). Whatever his motivation his remarks and his questions indicate to me, he was waiting for an opportunity and putting the pieces together even as he stood in the airport...

Im not convinced the butts are lost. I base this on Carr's last remarks about them possibly being in Washington or in some lab archive where they may have been sent and tested. Remember according to Carr the butts were split up. Some were sent for analysis to ?? Carr never explained. If Carr is to be believed he was looking for them at several sites ... Reno & etc.

I believe the condition of the money indicates it was at Tina Bar early: 71 to 74. And eroded out from there. How it got there and from where is a puzzle complicated by the FBI and NWA search and flight path maps. My big regret is that we did not get the Forensic Div of the Treasury involved in this. Their experience and wisdom in this matter could have been crucial. As it stands we really don't have 'any' decomposition models to go by - other than people's 'seat of pants' opinions. But I agree with Tom and others that traits in the money indicate a length exposure to natural forces without having moved too much since is deposition on Tina 1971-74 and not as late as 1978-80 as Palmer rather flippantly first said then had to back away from ... and, if the shards at significant depths mean anything it only reinforces an early deposition model.

Thanks as always Meyer!     

Shutter:  You say  "the problem I keep seeing with the money found on T-bar is the fact of an explanation is needed on how the money got off the bottom of the river if it came from upstream as far as the Washougal area? pieces found several feet below the money find leads one to ponder as to how that occurred?"

I say:  " The money (three bundles) on Tina Bar were a plant by Dwayne Ingram so his son could find the bundles. This is based upon the interview of Dwayne on the History Channel 4 hr program. How else could he have pointed to the exact spot where his son would find the money? His shifty eyes tell it all, it was a phony story. And Georger, he probably placed the money fragments in the bottom of the hole he dug and then the three bundles went on the surface and covered by just a little sand." The question is where did he get the three bundles? Were they given to him the night of Norjak by DB to thank him for the ride back to PDX airport and DB's parked car?

Bob Sailshaw
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Sailshaw, the real question here is how you come up with this story.  There was a rather widespread "field" of fragments at different levels in the sand at Tina Bar.  So far, neither you, me, or anyone else on this thread has been able to come up with a valid explanation as to how that happened. 

The problem I keep seeing with the money found on T-bar is the fact of an explanation is needed on how the money got off the bottom of the river if it came from upstream as far as the Washougal area? pieces found several feet below the money find leads one to ponder as to how that occurred?

A conspiracy makes no sense. why let the case linger unsolved? they had enough hijackings to implement new laws, no need to manufacture one.

There is the old dredging theory from the Washougal theory -- the dredger spewed some of the money bag, in tact, from the river bottom onto the beach at Tina Bar. 

How did the money pieces get several feet below the 3 packets?  Possible answer: multiple dredgings.  One guy I talked to said dredgings were pretty common in the Tina Bar area -- as was massive erosion.  He showed us where the shore used to be.  There was log on the hillside about 15 feet above us, and the horizontal distance to the log was probably 30 feet.  He said that's where the beach used to be when he was a kid.

Once the dredger coughed up yards of sand from the river bottom, a backhoe would come along and spread the sand out.  If a big pile of sand had to be moved from one place to another, it would be normal for the backhoe to take over and start scooping and piling.  Maybe on one of the first spread operations, a bundle of bills got caught in the backhoe blade and got spread out, undetected.  No one saw it.  The three bundles, however, were still there, buried under the sand, but in tact.  On one or more dredgings and spreadings later, the 3 bundles got scooped up together, in tact -- they stayed together.  Later, maybe much later, they got dumped close by and above the money fragments.   More sand from subsequent dredgings over the years covered them up even more, but the massive erosion there took over.  Eventually the erosion took away enough sand to expose the packets, and the rest is history -- the money shards were eventually found below, and close to, the money packets.  Far fetched?  Maybe, then again, maybe not.

Meyer

   

You sound like Knoss, but not in a bad way...don't take it wrong..

most unsolved mysteries end up surrounding conspiracies simply due to them not be solved, or understood. it's an easy explanation to a complicated problem.

If it was all a set up, how did physical evidence appear years later? hijackings were a problem, mainly political, but still a problem for the United States, not just specific area's. I would be more inclined to believe certain things regarding the case have been compromised. The FBI appears to have a track record of behavior. they don't like being wrong.

They seem to have it arranged so even if they allow people in to view the files, it's very possible they are not getting the gold package. that's extra. missing butts, flight data, everything critical to the case has somehow become missing.

I always fall back to the escape from Alcatraz. buried deep, really deep in the files were reports of a raft, and a stolen car following the escape. now, it's possible these guys got off the island in a way nobody imagined. if this ends up being true, all the conspiracies, and cover ups are exposed. 

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The problem I keep seeing with the money found on T-bar is the fact of an explanation is needed on how the money got off the bottom of the river if it came from upstream as far as the Washougal area? pieces found several feet below the money find leads one to ponder as to how that occurred?

A conspiracy makes no sense. why let the case linger unsolved? they had enough hijackings to implement new laws, no need to manufacture one.

There is the old dredging theory from the Washougal theory -- the dredger spewed some of the money bag, in tact, from the river bottom onto the beach at Tina Bar. 

How did the money pieces get several feet below the 3 packets?  Possible answer: multiple dredgings.  One guy I talked to said dredgings were pretty common in the Tina Bar area -- as was massive erosion.  He showed us where the shore used to be.  There was log on the hillside about 15 feet above us, and the horizontal distance to the log was probably 30 feet.  He said that's where the beach used to be when he was a kid.

Once the dredger coughed up yards of sand from the river bottom, a backhoe would come along and spread the sand out.  If a big pile of sand had to be moved from one place to another, it would be normal for the backhoe to take over and start scooping and piling.  Maybe on one of the first spread operations, a bundle of bills got caught in the backhoe blade and got spread out, undetected.  No one saw it.  The three bundles, however, were still there, buried under the sand, but in tact.  On one or more dredgings and spreadings later, the 3 bundles got scooped up together, in tact -- they stayed together.  Later, maybe much later, they got dumped close by and above the money fragments.   More sand from subsequent dredgings over the years covered them up even more, but the massive erosion there took over.  Eventually the erosion took away enough sand to expose the packets, and the rest is history -- the money shards were eventually found below, and close to, the money packets.  Far fetched?  Maybe, then again, maybe not.

Meyer
 

The dredging is of course the simplest solution - a few bundles left in tact plus pieces distributed at different depths all in the same general area. A mechanical solution. Years later the Ingram bundles appear at the surface due to erosion but pieces are deeper and undisturbed and generally upstream or closer to the shoreline than the bundles.

But, what accounts for the money (bagged etc) being on the bottom to be dredged up at all, near Tina Bar? Thats the part I have difficulty with.

This money did not wash up off the bottom of the Columbia on to Tina Bar on its own! That's impossible.

This money was not dragged upstream from the Lewis on a propeller!

This money either came up with the dredging material or it washed in from nearby as R99 thinks. Those are the only two high probability alternatives.


   

If, and I mean if the money got there via dredge it should of placed the money all over the place due to slurry coming out of the pipe (liquid) possibly portions going right back into the river, I don't know. if they found pieces at 3 feet, isn't that already below, or with the dredge layer?

The bag, if it was intact could of been discarded as trash if it ever surfaced....

When it comes down to evidence, is there any that people accept? several months ago I ran the final test on the path, but the conclusions didn't phase anyone, in fact I read an article stating a "proper simulation needs to be done" time slipped by on me, and I took way to long with the whole project. the video views were always low, even on the DZ. without knowing exactly when Cooper jumped makes it hard to pinpoint an actual jump time. the simulation would have to be exact, down to the second. every twist and turn they did. I believe I came close, but since it runs along with the FBI map, it must be wrong? with the exception of the lake Merwin area.

There were limited adjustments needed to match the transcripts, including using auto pilot as the FBI records show (according to Tom Kaye). actually, it states it was used most of the time. it was suppose to be a stepping stone to bigger things, perhaps it will, I don't know. there is only one commercial 727 simulator left, so someone needs to run the path with it before it disappears. the owner wasn't to keen about the whole idea.