This is one of the problems with JT - where was he, and when?

I've never seen any maps from him, and when I agree to go on a search with him, he declines.

He speaks very authoritatively when I mention that I was on the west branch of the Little Washougal, "Oh, yeah, I know where that is...."

But I'd love to know exactly where he found the golf ball, and of course, the cave with the briefcase that got Himms all fired up in the 1980s.

JT told me on the phone that he used ping pong balls, and they arrived at T-bar. I didn't asked him any questions about it. I would think you would have to use a lot of them since most of them would probably get hung up on the banks.

As I remember the conversation, JT spoke in an off-handed manner about "some of the weird stuff you can find, even in the deep woods." Apparently, the golf ball was just lying on the ground. JT and I speculated that it must have been thrown from a passing plane, ala the coke bottle in the movie, "The Gods Must be Crazy."

Robert99's Alternative Flight Path Theory


I'm writing up R99's alt fp theory. Is this an accurate portrayal of your theories, Robert?


Alternative Flight Path

Because the so-called “believed flight path” offered by the FBI is so contentious, an alternative flight path was developed by Robert Nicholson in 2016. Nicholson, known as Robert99 at the DB Cooper Forum, is a long-time student of the case and is a retired avionics engineer and private pilot.

Nicholson scrapped all the previously held hypotheses and speculated on two major findings. First, the money find at Tina Bar defies explanation and a fly-over there would explain how the money arrived at the beach. Secondly, the pilots had full discretion to fly anywhere they wanted, and Nicholson feels the crew of 305 would be very desirous of passing west of Portland and avoiding urban populations in case DB Cooper detonated his bomb.

Therefore, Nicholson feels that 305 may have left the Victor-23 air corridor at one of its radio beacon stations known as the Malay Intersection, which is located near Mayfield, Washington, about 45 miles northwest of Portland. Nicholson then says that 305 could have flown due south from that point for about 70 miles until it reconnected with Victor-23 in Canby, Oregon, about 25 miles south of Portland. Thus was born the Malay-Canby transect theory.

This straight line flight not only puts 305 west of the populated areas of Vancouver and Portland, but it also places 305 directly above Tina Bar. In addition, this section of the Columbia River is a 40-mile stretch of flood plains and waterways that slosh westward for ten miles, giving this area over 400-square miles of river, marshes and mud for Rataczak to deposit his skyjacker. Remember, Rataczak initially wanted to fly over the Pacific ocean to a refueling in San Francisco, saying, “Let's see how long DB Cooper can hold his breath.” Certainly, flying over this part of the Columbia was a good second-choice for Rataczak.

Nicholson continues with his theories to include how the money actually got deposited at Tina Bar and in the various conditions it was found. Nicholson claims that Cooper was a “no-pull” and cratered near the money find site – landing no further upstream than the northern reaches of Caterpillar Island - and perhaps a few feet higher in elevation than Tina Bar, and far enough hidden in the brush and brambles to avoid detection for years. Nicholson says that the money bag broke apart upon impact, and multiple clumps of money began drifting downward and downstream toward the Tina Bar area. Due to varied weathering patterns, Nicholson feels that one clump of money was thoroughly torn apart and fragmented, forming the first and deeper level of money. Later, the three bundles found by Brian Ingram encountered less weathering and were buried above the initial fragmentation field. All of it was covered eventually through floods, rain and river action until sufficient erosion took place in the T-Bar area to reveal the upper bundles of money that Brian Ingram found on February 10, 1980.

Nicholson's theories are elegant and compelling, but there is no corroborating evidence from Rataczak or other sources. Nevertheless, it does explain the money find.

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Robert99's Alternative Flight Path Theory


I'm writing up R99's alt fp theory. Is this an accurate portrayal of your theories, Robert?


Alternative Flight Path

Because the so-called “believed flight path” offered by the FBI is so contentious, an alternative flight path was developed by Robert Nicholson in 2016. Nicholson, known as Robert99 at the DB Cooper Forum, is a long-time student of the case and is a retired avionics engineer and private pilot.

Nicholson scrapped all the previously held hypotheses and speculated on two major findings. First, the money find at Tina Bar defies explanation and a fly-over there would explain how the money arrived at the beach. Secondly, the pilots had full discretion to fly anywhere they wanted, and Nicholson feels the crew of 305 would be very desirous of passing west of Portland and avoiding urban populations in case DB Cooper detonated his bomb.

Therefore, Nicholson feels that 305 may have left the Victor-23 air corridor at one of its radio beacon stations known as the Malay Intersection, which is located near Mayfield, Washington, about 45 miles northwest of Portland. Nicholson then says that 305 could have flown due south from that point for about 70 miles until it reconnected with Victor-23 in Canby, Oregon, about 25 miles south of Portland. Thus was born the Malay-Canby transect theory.

This straight line flight not only puts 305 west of the populated areas of Vancouver and Portland, but it also places 305 directly above Tina Bar. In addition, this section of the Columbia River is a 40-mile stretch of flood plains and waterways that slosh westward for ten miles, giving this area over 400-square miles of river, marshes and mud for Rataczak to deposit his skyjacker. Remember, Rataczak initially wanted to fly over the Pacific ocean to a refueling in San Francisco, saying, “Let's see how long DB Cooper can hold his breath.” Certainly, flying over this part of the Columbia was a good second-choice for Rataczak.

Nicholson continues with his theories to include how the money actually got deposited at Tina Bar and in the various conditions it was found. Nicholson claims that Cooper was a “no-pull” and cratered near the money find site – landing no further upstream than the northern reaches of Caterpillar Island - and perhaps a few feet higher in elevation than Tina Bar, and far enough hidden in the brush and brambles to avoid detection for years. Nicholson says that the money bag broke apart upon impact, and multiple clumps of money began drifting downward and downstream toward the Tina Bar area. Due to varied weathering patterns, Nicholson feels that one clump of money was thoroughly torn apart and fragmented, forming the first and deeper level of money. Later, the three bundles found by Brian Ingram encountered less weathering and were buried above the initial fragmentation field. All of it was covered eventually through floods, rain and river action until sufficient erosion took place in the T-Bar area to reveal the upper bundles of money that Brian Ingram found on February 10, 1980.

Nicholson's theories are elegant and compelling, but there is no corroborating evidence from Rataczak or other sources. Nevertheless, it does explain the money find.

BRUCE, HOLD EVERYTHING!  LET'S START AT THE BEGINING AGAIN.  THE NUMBERS BELOW ARE FOR REFERENCE PURPOSES.

1.  The "believed flight path" offered by the FBI is so unbelievable that there is nothing to argue about.  Simply put, no hijacked airliner would be flown in the manner depicted on the FBI chart under those conditions.  Period!

2.  The "alternative flight path" was actually developed in 2009 and not 2016.

3.  I am a retired aeronautical engineer, general aviation pilot, and have made a small number of skydiver parachute jumps.  Ask 377 what an avionics engineer does.

4.  There are no radio beacons (or any other navigational hardware) located at the Malay and Canby Intersections.  Between these two intersections, the airliner would be given headings to fly by the air traffic controllers who were tracking it on radar.  The airliner would not be doing its own navigation.  This is why Rataczak told the air traffic control people to "mark your maps" when the crew felt that Cooper had jumped.  Otherwise, Rataczak could have given the jump location more accurately if the crew was doing its own navigation between navigations aids.

5.  A direct line between the Malay and Canby Intersections passes about 1000 feet west of Tina Bar, or approximately the Oregon shore of the Columbia River.  Rataczak probably could not tell when the airliner was over the Columbia River or any of the numerous other rivers and lakes in the area of Tina Bar.  Remember that the airliner was above an overcast.

6.  Along with Rataczak, Himmelsbach, and numerous others, I believe that Cooper died in the jump.  I also personally believe that Cooper was a no-pull who landed on solid ground but within a relatively few feet of the water in the Caterpillar Island channel.  And that the money bag was still attached to him when he impacted.

7.  How the money got from Cooper's impact point to the point where it was found at Tina Bar is a mystery.  The recent discovery of the YouTube video of FBI agents digging up bundles and fragments of money buried under a foot or more of sand raises new questions about how it deteriorated.  Tom Kaye has posted that the money in the video did not resemble the money being used in his tests.  Consequently, the deterioration mechanism is apparently different.

8.  The three bundles of money found at Tina Bar apparently arrived at the same time and one of those bundles showed signs of having been "torqued".  See Tom Kaye's web site for a discussion of that.  The fact that the three bundles were found under only two or three inches of sand does not explain how the fragments at a deeper level arrived a Tina Bar.  There is no basis for speculation on this point at this time.

9.  Cooper could have landed as far south (upstream) as the southern end of Caterpillar Island in this scenario.

10.  There is corroborating evidence from Rataczak on this, see number 4 above.  Georger has interviewed a large number of people on the flight path in the Portland area.  All appear to be in agreement that the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side.

Robert99   

Tom Kaye has posted that the money in the video did not resemble the money being used in his tests.  Consequently, the deterioration mechanism is apparently different.

What in blazes is that supposed to mean? 

Where did Tom post this?

[edit] oh ok! I git it!  Tom is comparing Cooper money found at Tina Bar (photos of same) with his "test money"  consisting of new/old bills he used for his water and buried sand tests in 2008... then saying deterioration in those two samples aren't the same. Well DUHHHHHHHHHHHH!  Camels in Finland and camels in Egypt are different too! Fords and Chevy's are different too.

Did Tom actually expect that deterioration (conditions) in his test bills would be the same as deterioration in Cooper bills on Tina Bar 1971-1980?  What Tom is saying is basically meaningless. This is nonsense.

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Robert99's Alternative Flight Path Theory


I'm writing up R99's alt fp theory. Is this an accurate portrayal of your theories, Robert?


Alternative Flight Path

Because the so-called “believed flight path” offered by the FBI is so contentious, an alternative flight path was developed by Robert Nicholson in 2016. Nicholson, known as Robert99 at the DB Cooper Forum, is a long-time student of the case and is a retired avionics engineer and private pilot.

Nicholson scrapped all the previously held hypotheses and speculated on two major findings. First, the money find at Tina Bar defies explanation and a fly-over there would explain how the money arrived at the beach. Secondly, the pilots had full discretion to fly anywhere they wanted, and Nicholson feels the crew of 305 would be very desirous of passing west of Portland and avoiding urban populations in case DB Cooper detonated his bomb.

Therefore, Nicholson feels that 305 may have left the Victor-23 air corridor at one of its radio beacon stations known as the Malay Intersection, which is located near Mayfield, Washington, about 45 miles northwest of Portland. Nicholson then says that 305 could have flown due south from that point for about 70 miles until it reconnected with Victor-23 in Canby, Oregon, about 25 miles south of Portland. Thus was born the Malay-Canby transect theory.

This straight line flight not only puts 305 west of the populated areas of Vancouver and Portland, but it also places 305 directly above Tina Bar. In addition, this section of the Columbia River is a 40-mile stretch of flood plains and waterways that slosh westward for ten miles, giving this area over 400-square miles of river, marshes and mud for Rataczak to deposit his skyjacker. Remember, Rataczak initially wanted to fly over the Pacific ocean to a refueling in San Francisco, saying, “Let's see how long DB Cooper can hold his breath.” Certainly, flying over this part of the Columbia was a good second-choice for Rataczak.

Nicholson continues with his theories to include how the money actually got deposited at Tina Bar and in the various conditions it was found. Nicholson claims that Cooper was a “no-pull” and cratered near the money find site – landing no further upstream than the northern reaches of Caterpillar Island - and perhaps a few feet higher in elevation than Tina Bar, and far enough hidden in the brush and brambles to avoid detection for years. Nicholson says that the money bag broke apart upon impact, and multiple clumps of money began drifting downward and downstream toward the Tina Bar area. Due to varied weathering patterns, Nicholson feels that one clump of money was thoroughly torn apart and fragmented, forming the first and deeper level of money. Later, the three bundles found by Brian Ingram encountered less weathering and were buried above the initial fragmentation field. All of it was covered eventually through floods, rain and river action until sufficient erosion took place in the T-Bar area to reveal the upper bundles of money that Brian Ingram found on February 10, 1980.

Nicholson's theories are elegant and compelling, but there is no corroborating evidence from Rataczak or other sources. Nevertheless, it does explain the money find.

BRUCE, HOLD EVERYTHING!  LET'S START AT THE BEGINING AGAIN.  THE NUMBERS BELOW ARE FOR REFERENCE PURPOSES.

1.  The "believed flight path" offered by the FBI is so unbelievable that there is nothing to argue about.  Simply put, no hijacked airliner would be flown in the manner depicted on the FBI chart under those conditions.  Period!

2.  The "alternative flight path" was actually developed in 2009 and not 2016.

3.  I am a retired aeronautical engineer, general aviation pilot, and have made a small number of skydiver parachute jumps.  Ask 377 what an avionics engineer does.

4.  There are no radio beacons (or any other navigational hardware) located at the Malay and Canby Intersections.  Between these two intersections, the airliner would be given headings to fly by the air traffic controllers who were tracking it on radar.  The airliner would not be doing its own navigation.  This is why Rataczak told the air traffic control people to "mark your maps" when the crew felt that Cooper had jumped.  Otherwise, Rataczak could have given the jump location more accurately if the crew was doing its own navigation between navigations aids.

5.  A direct line between the Malay and Canby Intersections passes about 1000 feet west of Tina Bar, or approximately the Oregon shore of the Columbia River.  Rataczak probably could not tell when the airliner was over the Columbia River or any of the numerous other rivers and lakes in the area of Tina Bar.  Remember that the airliner was above an overcast.

6.  Along with Rataczak, Himmelsbach, and numerous others, I believe that Cooper died in the jump.  I also personally believe that Cooper was a no-pull who landed on solid ground but within a relatively few feet of the water in the Caterpillar Island channel.  And that the money bag was still attached to him when he impacted.

7.  How the money got from Cooper's impact point to the point where it was found at Tina Bar is a mystery.  The recent discovery of the YouTube video of FBI agents digging up bundles and fragments of money buried under a foot or more of sand raises new questions about how it deteriorated.  Tom Kaye has posted that the money in the video did not resemble the money being used in his tests.  Consequently, the deterioration mechanism is apparently different.

8.  The three bundles of money found at Tina Bar apparently arrived at the same time and one of those bundles showed signs of having been "torqued".  See Tom Kaye's web site for a discussion of that.  The fact that the three bundles were found under only two or three inches of sand does not explain how the fragments at a deeper level arrived a Tina Bar.  There is no basis for speculation on this point at this time.

9.  Cooper could have landed as far south (upstream) as the southern end of Caterpillar Island in this scenario.

10.  There is corroborating evidence from Rataczak on this, see number 4 above.  Georger has interviewed a large number of people on the flight path in the Portland area.  All appear to be in agreement that the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side.

Robert99   

Tom Kaye has posted that the money in the video did not resemble the money being used in his tests.  Consequently, the deterioration mechanism is apparently different.

What in blazes is that supposed to mean? 

Where did Tom post this?

[edit] oh ok! I git it!  Tom is comparing Cooper money found at Tina Bar (photos of same) with his "test money"  consisting of new/old bills he used for his water and buried sand tests in 2008... then saying deterioration in those two samples aren't the same. Well DUHHHHHHHHHHHH!  Camels in Finland and camels in Egypt are different too! Fords and Chevy's are different too.

Did Tom actually expect that deterioration (conditions) in his test bills would be the same as deterioration in Cooper bills on Tina Bar 1971-1980?  What Tom is saying is basically meaningless. This is nonsense.

Not so fast here!  Tom's original discussion is in a post on July 17, 2016, 01:31:16 AM, on the "Tina Bar Money Find Thread".

I am the one who said the deterioration process was apparently different between the Tina Bar money and the money Tom used in his tests.  Actually, Tom said something like the money in his tests "still looks fine".  And that he has no idea how the money got to Tina Bar although he discounts the dredge theory.

My suggestion was that the money found at Tina Bar may have originally gone through repeated wet/dry cycles that caused the fragments to be created.  And as has been discussed in the past, one of the bundles showed signs of having been "torqued" which means to me that it was exposed to running water (or maybe wind) while locked in place somewhere along the way.

And to repeat an earlier post of this evening, how the money got from Cooper's impact site to Tina Bar and at different levels in the sand is a mystery to me also.