Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1830584 times)

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #975 on: April 19, 2016, 06:05:48 PM »
Who is Janet Winks? And what is her story?

The only "Wink" I've heard of is Dewey Cooper's girlfriend in Sisters, Oregon, where LD and Dew went when Lynn was a "bloody mess."
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #976 on: April 19, 2016, 11:21:29 PM »
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Who is Janet Winks? And what is her story?

The only "Wink" I've heard of is Dewey Cooper's girlfriend in Sisters, Oregon, where LD and Dew went when Lynn was a "bloody mess."

Janet _ at Vancouver _ interviewed by Tosaw _ flare or fire story at Vancouver in the same timeframe when 305 was flying over ? She filed a report and wrote a letter. Suits showed up at her door and told her to keep it quiet, in an unkind manner. ?

Her story is similar to Mike Cooper's re_ FBI manners. 
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #977 on: April 20, 2016, 05:02:48 AM »
It is similar, isn't it.

But I believe Michael's story. It seems to be adding up. The Fiery Object Janet? Well, I don't disbelieve it, I just put it in another pile - the one of:  "It could be true and what does it mean?"

The story that is really sticking in my mind this evening is Larry Feingold's story about the G-Man coming aboard when the door opened up, saying "Hi, Larry. You've got a hijacker on-board."

And another one that keeps swirling around is what happened when the feds talked to Michael Cooper - three separate agents, got his Montana DL, and then released him - but dropped the dime on him an hour later. Whaddaya think? Total screw-up. Or somebody's ploy to misdirect the media attention away from D. Cooper and send everybody running over to Missoula? A psy-op to obscure the action down in Ariel/Washougal/T-Bar?

Right now I'm rating it 50-50. The feds ain't that dumb. And they ain't that smart, either, although they often think they are, imho.

377? Whaddaya think? You're a student of Federal Behaviors.
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #978 on: April 20, 2016, 03:47:21 PM »
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It is similar, isn't it.

But I believe Michael's story. It seems to be adding up. The Fiery Object Janet? Well, I don't disbelieve it, I just put it in another pile - the one of:  "It could be true and what does it mean?"

The story that is really sticking in my mind this evening is Larry Feingold's story about the G-Man coming aboard when the door opened up, saying "Hi, Larry. You've got a hijacker on-board."

And another one that keeps swirling around is what happened when the feds talked to Michael Cooper - three separate agents, got his Montana DL, and then released him - but dropped the dime on him an hour later. Whaddaya think? Total screw-up. Or somebody's ploy to misdirect the media attention away from D. Cooper and send everybody running over to Missoula? A psy-op to obscure the action down in Ariel/Washougal/T-Bar?

Right now I'm rating it 50-50. The feds ain't that dumb. And they ain't that smart, either, although they often think they are, imho.

377? Whaddaya think? You're a student of Federal Behaviors.

The two problems with the Janet story are (a) no corroborating second of third reports, and (b) the physics of what Janet could have seen or saw. But, there are problems with that. (1) The newspaper/reporter version of what Janet claimed to see does not match what 'Janet says she saw'. Blevins attacked Janet's story based squarely on the questionable newspaper account - Blevin's refused to consider anything else in spite of reports that the 'reporter' account was not accurate.  (2) The newspaper account omitted the fact Janet's husband and children were also witnesses and saw 'something' that caught their attention. (3) There is abundant evidence that whatever Janet and her husband saw they reported it to a number of people, had discussions with people including law enforcement, and Janet wrote a letter to the FBI reporting what she had seen.

Janet's husband talked to law enforcement who apparently advised to keep a low profile. Janet was then allegedly visited by "suits" who told her to STFU! The family then took a lower public profile in the matter.

Janet's story challenges the official flight path. R99 could give an opinion about that based on his analysis. Janet's story introduces the possibility of 'flares' being cited by a witness, at a time when only a handful of people at the official level suspected Cooper's bomb consisted of road flares and no dynamite. Janet and her husband reported their story in detail in a timely fashion which eliminates the possibility that they made their story up after the fact based on news accounts. Janet and her husband's report is an independent account unrelated to anyone or anything else, before flight 305 had even landed at Reno.

The newspaper reporter's account of what Janet saw, eliminates Janet's husband, children, and others from the story! The reporter's version of what Janet saw is not a true or accurate account of what 'Janet AND HER HUSBAND' said they saw.

One possible explanation for a strong FBI reaction, whether appropriate or not, is the fact that Janet's report literally dovetailed other official discussions happening in the same time frame as Janet and her husband's observations were happening Janet and her husband made their observations in the same time frame as flight 305 was leaving Portland-Vancouver airspace to be turned over from R2 at Seattle to the controller at Eugene . A lot was happening during this short time frame. R2 was in communication with 305, with another controller at Eugene, with military people, and also with a T33 trying to intercept flight 305 just south of Portland. The flight crew on 305 had just reported 'he must have bailed ...'. It was to say the least a chaotic fact-dense period with many communications happening and people trying to plan the next move ...

As soon as R2 passed control over to Eugene  and things settled down a bit, R2 asked the controller at Eugene if this hijacking could have anything to do with a "flare dropping incident" (FAA/FBI documented) which had occurred at Eugene the weekend before 11/24/71? This lead to a series of discussions. It ultimately influenced the FBI to give suspects in the Eugene area some scrutiny; commented about later by 305 passengers being shown suspect photos.

But, the Janet 'fire' report and the Eugene 'flare' report dovetail. It is no surprise that the FBI took it seriously and tried to clamp down on rumors.

What Janet saw may have been flares being dropped and drifting.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 04:11:30 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #979 on: April 20, 2016, 04:05:58 PM »
Could it have been a F-106 dropping flares?
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #980 on: April 20, 2016, 04:17:23 PM »
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Could it have been a F-106 dropping flares?

Why and did they?

R2 describes conversation with the Eugene controller and others. There is no mention of an F-106 as the source of any flares. Does anyone have evidence a F-106 dropped flares? (in the VCR area) ? Why would they? To mark the zone of Cooper's bailout based or crew or other official reports they were listening to? 
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #981 on: April 20, 2016, 04:32:08 PM »
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The two problems with the Janet story are (a) no corroborating second of third reports, and (b) the physics of what Janet could have seen or saw. But, there are problems with that. (1) The newspaper/reporter version of what Janet claimed to see does not match what 'Janet says she saw'. Blevins attacked Janet's story based squarely on the questionable newspaper account - Blevin's refused to consider anything else in spite of reports that the 'reporter' account was not accurate.  (2) The newspaper account omitted the fact Janet's husband and children were also witnesses and saw 'something' that caught their attention. (3) There is abundant evidence that whatever Janet and her husband saw they reported it to a number of people, had discussions with people including law enforcement, and Janet wrote a letter to the FBI reporting what she had seen.

Janet's husband talked to law enforcement who apparently advised to keep a low profile. Janet was then allegedly visited by "suits" who told her to STFU! The family then took a lower public profile in the matter.

Janet's story challenges the official flight path. R99 could give an opinion about that based on his analysis. Janet's story introduces the possibility of 'flares' being cited by a witness, at a time when only a handful of people at the official level suspected Cooper's bomb consisted of road flares and no dynamite. Janet and her husband reported their story in detail in a timely fashion which eliminates the possibility that they made their story up after the fact based on news accounts. Janet and her husband's report is an independent account unrelated to anyone or anything else, before flight 305 had even landed at Reno.

The newspaper reporter's account of what Janet saw, eliminates Janet's husband, children, and others from the story! The reporter's version of what Janet saw is not a true or accurate account of what 'Janet AND HER HUSBAND' said they saw.

One possible explanation for a strong FBI reaction, whether appropriate or not, is the fact that Janet's report literally dovetailed other official discussions happening in the same time frame as Janet and her husband's observations were happening Janet and her husband made their observations in the same time frame as flight 305 was leaving Portland-Vancouver airspace to be turned over from R2 at Seattle to the controller at Eugene . A lot was happening during this short time frame. R2 was in communication with 305, with another controller at Eugene, with military people, and also with a T33 trying to intercept flight 305 just south of Portland. The flight crew on 305 had just reported 'he must have bailed ...'. It was to say the least a chaotic fact-dense period with many communications happening and people trying to plan the next move ...

As soon as R2 passed control over to Eugene  and things settled down a bit, R2 asked the controller at Eugene if this hijacking could have anything to do with a "flare dropping incident" (FAA/FBI documented) which had occurred at Eugene the weekend before 11/24/71? This lead to a series of discussions. It ultimately influenced the FBI to give suspects in the Eugene area some scrutiny; commented about later by 305 passengers being shown suspect photos.

But, the Janet 'fire' report and the Eugene 'flare' report dovetail. It is no surprise that the FBI took it seriously and tried to clamp down on rumors.

What Janet saw may have been flares being dropped and drifting.


I like your analysis, G. As for corroboration, I thought there were two other accounts of the fiery object, with Janet's making a total of three. I recall you and Galen wondering if the 2nd and 3rd accounts were actually a re-telling of the episode after the other parties had heard of the fiery object through Janet/the Vancouver grape vine.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #982 on: April 20, 2016, 04:32:23 PM »
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Could it have been a F-106 dropping flares?

Why and did they?

R2 describes conversation with the Eugene controller and others. There is no mention of an F-106 as the source of any flares. Does anyone have evidence a F-106 dropped flares? (in the VCR area) ? Why would they? To mark the zone of Cooper's bailout based or crew or other official reports they were listening to?


Thinking out loud basically, yes, I was thinking they might of dropped some flares for ground reasons (visual tracking)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 04:34:09 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #983 on: April 20, 2016, 04:41:02 PM »
Flares could of been to there advantage. they can lite up 15 acres for 15 seconds. I'm not saying they did, I think a lot of people would have seen them...
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #984 on: April 20, 2016, 05:31:11 PM »
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Flares could of been to there advantage. they can lite up 15 acres for 15 seconds. I'm not saying they did, I think a lot of people would have seen them...

In my opinion, it is very unlikely that the T-33 or the F-106s(?) would be carrying flares in the first place.  I do not know of any purpose that they would serve.  In any event, the aircraft were quite a bit higher than the lowest cloud layer which (from memory) was about 3,000 feet.
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #985 on: April 20, 2016, 06:00:34 PM »
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The two problems with the Janet story are (a) no corroborating second of third reports, and (b) the physics of what Janet could have seen or saw. But, there are problems with that. (1) The newspaper/reporter version of what Janet claimed to see does not match what 'Janet says she saw'. Blevins attacked Janet's story based squarely on the questionable newspaper account - Blevin's refused to consider anything else in spite of reports that the 'reporter' account was not accurate.  (2) The newspaper account omitted the fact Janet's husband and children were also witnesses and saw 'something' that caught their attention. (3) There is abundant evidence that whatever Janet and her husband saw they reported it to a number of people, had discussions with people including law enforcement, and Janet wrote a letter to the FBI reporting what she had seen.

Janet's husband talked to law enforcement who apparently advised to keep a low profile. Janet was then allegedly visited by "suits" who told her to STFU! The family then took a lower public profile in the matter.

Janet's story challenges the official flight path. R99 could give an opinion about that based on his analysis. Janet's story introduces the possibility of 'flares' being cited by a witness, at a time when only a handful of people at the official level suspected Cooper's bomb consisted of road flares and no dynamite. Janet and her husband reported their story in detail in a timely fashion which eliminates the possibility that they made their story up after the fact based on news accounts. Janet and her husband's report is an independent account unrelated to anyone or anything else, before flight 305 had even landed at Reno.

The newspaper reporter's account of what Janet saw, eliminates Janet's husband, children, and others from the story! The reporter's version of what Janet saw is not a true or accurate account of what 'Janet AND HER HUSBAND' said they saw.

One possible explanation for a strong FBI reaction, whether appropriate or not, is the fact that Janet's report literally dovetailed other official discussions happening in the same time frame as Janet and her husband's observations were happening Janet and her husband made their observations in the same time frame as flight 305 was leaving Portland-Vancouver airspace to be turned over from R2 at Seattle to the controller at Eugene . A lot was happening during this short time frame. R2 was in communication with 305, with another controller at Eugene, with military people, and also with a T33 trying to intercept flight 305 just south of Portland. The flight crew on 305 had just reported 'he must have bailed ...'. It was to say the least a chaotic fact-dense period with many communications happening and people trying to plan the next move ...

As soon as R2 passed control over to Eugene  and things settled down a bit, R2 asked the controller at Eugene if this hijacking could have anything to do with a "flare dropping incident" (FAA/FBI documented) which had occurred at Eugene the weekend before 11/24/71? This lead to a series of discussions. It ultimately influenced the FBI to give suspects in the Eugene area some scrutiny; commented about later by 305 passengers being shown suspect photos.

But, the Janet 'fire' report and the Eugene 'flare' report dovetail. It is no surprise that the FBI took it seriously and tried to clamp down on rumors.

What Janet saw may have been flares being dropped and drifting.


I like your analysis, G. As for corroboration, I thought there were two other accounts of the fiery object, with Janet's making a total of three. I recall you and Galen wondering if the 2nd and 3rd accounts were actually a re-telling of the episode after the other parties had heard of the fiery object through Janet/the Vancouver grape vine.

The 2nd and 3rd accounts turned out to be repeats ie. people Janet and her husband knew and had confided in. I have the details. Janet's husband took this seriously and talked to law enforcement and people at his work. That then involved two more people, and others. That is where accounts 2 and 3 come from ... from Janet's husband's contacts.

If just one more INDEPENDENT witness had come forward, we would have to take this seriously.

We researched this as thoroughly as we could. Account no.3 had changed Janet's original account to "and when the plane cam over here, it was on fire!" HI!  :)  Since I actually knew the lady and the family I knew it was an exaggeration - I knew that immediately. I laughed. It all came clear when I contacted the lady's family and got their accounts. Everything started with Janet and her husband.  Janet's husband is now deceased.

BTW R2's account remains unchanged and is fact.     
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 06:02:13 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #986 on: April 20, 2016, 06:07:04 PM »
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Flares could of been to there advantage. they can lite up 15 acres for 15 seconds. I'm not saying they did, I think a lot of people would have seen them...

In my opinion, it is very unlikely that the T-33 or the F-106s(?) would be carrying flares in the first place.  I do not know of any purpose that they would serve.  In any event, the aircraft were quite a bit higher than the lowest cloud layer which (from memory) was about 3,000 feet.

I agree with yours. I was thinking 'helicopter'? I cant recall everyone's comments over the years but somewhere didn't somebody say something, or speculate, about the helo Himms was in dropping flares? ... up near Woodland?
I wouldnt rule out a helo dropping flares, frankly, and if one did then why in the Vancouver vicinity if people thought Cooper had bailed up north near Ariel? It would make no sense be dropping flares outside of the "dropzone" ??? 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #987 on: April 20, 2016, 06:08:12 PM »
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Flares could of been to there advantage. they can lite up 15 acres for 15 seconds. I'm not saying they did, I think a lot of people would have seen them...

In my opinion, it is very unlikely that the T-33 or the F-106s(?) would be carrying flares in the first place.  I do not know of any purpose that they would serve.  In any event, the aircraft were quite a bit higher than the lowest cloud layer which (from memory) was about 3,000 feet.


It appears the F-106 was not equipped with flares for detouring missiles, but the C-130's had them. I just thought it might be what could of been seen that evening....
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #988 on: April 21, 2016, 01:43:25 AM »
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Flares could of been to there advantage. they can lite up 15 acres for 15 seconds. I'm not saying they did, I think a lot of people would have seen them...

In my opinion, it is very unlikely that the T-33 or the F-106s(?) would be carrying flares in the first place.  I do not know of any purpose that they would serve.  In any event, the aircraft were quite a bit higher than the lowest cloud layer which (from memory) was about 3,000 feet.


It appears the F-106 was not equipped with flares for detouring missiles, but the C-130's had them. I just thought it might be what could of been seen that evening....

I have always thought that if Janet's story had been aired earlier, others would have come forward to confirm it. It was simply a matter of timing and opportunity. But I am sure if Janet and her family saw 'something' then others did also. That may be one of the reasons the FBI wanted it shut down firmly, asap. The controllers had already raised the issue of the flare report at Eugene from the weekend before (which is documented). Another flare report right at a critical time in a critical place, in the hijacking would not have come as good news to some. In the end the FBI evidently chose to take a possible link to Eugene seriously and they weighted their suspect photos being shown witnesses accordingly. Janet and her husbands' report was not a fleeting glimpse, but something they watched and followed drifting west over a period of seconds; very much like the night time flare reports from the weekend before at Eugene reported to law enforcement (and the FBI and FAA).

The flaw in the family's story is not in what they saw and reported, but in the newspaper 'reporter' socalled that invented his own elaboration of what the family said they saw! But his report didn't get much attention, apparently, until Tosaw was approached by Janet and brought it all up again years later.

The controllers were candid in their thoughts. They were wondering if the hijacker of flight 305 had been practicing in Eugene airspace, just days before the 305 hijacking. Neither Janet or her husband knew anything about that. Theirs is an independent report. Would Himmelsbach confirm this?
     
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 02:57:45 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #989 on: April 21, 2016, 03:49:36 PM »
Passenger Update - MacPhersons

I've found S. MacPherson (son), the son of Bill and nephew of Scott. I will be speaking with him next week.

Note, he spells his name in the Scottish style - "MacPherson." Of his father and uncle, one is deceased and the other critically ill.

The Hunt continues.