Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1830517 times)

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #930 on: February 07, 2016, 02:14:42 AM »
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Yes, but would he know this being involved with the CIA flights?

I just want to point out that any specialised training, knowledge, or experience you give Cooper, only enhances the odds he survived. It may also change the FBI profile of his likelihood to hijack at all!
« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 02:20:12 AM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #931 on: February 07, 2016, 02:17:57 PM »
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Yes, but would he know this being involved with the CIA flights?

Cooper could know this without being directly involved with the CIA flights.  But this does suggest that Cooper had some kind of association or connection with a US government organization and perhaps operated at the same air base as the CIA.
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #932 on: February 07, 2016, 02:24:14 PM »
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Yes, but would he know this being involved with the CIA flights?

I just want to point out that any specialised training, knowledge, or experience you give Cooper, only enhances the odds he survived. It may also change the FBI profile of his likelihood to hijack at all!

Also, you should factor in the fact that many people who were in SE Asia, and working for the US government, were former military types and working under contract.  Quite a few US government contractors are also working in the middle east today and have been in the news for one reason or another.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #933 on: February 07, 2016, 11:55:16 PM »
DB Cooper's Daughter says, "Howdy!"

Perhaps DB Cooper's daughter, Nora Mae Bell Smith, can help us clear up the issues concerning what he knew about jumping from a 727 and where he learned it.  Nora has recently posted at the Mountain News-WA:

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Unfortunately, the email address she provided is bogus, so I will explore other avenues of contact, such as Fb.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 11:55:31 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #934 on: February 07, 2016, 11:58:32 PM »
Nora Mae is receiving:

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She talks about Daddy, too!
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #935 on: February 08, 2016, 12:04:57 AM »
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Nora Mae is receiving:

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She talks about Daddy, too!

?????????????????????   
 

Offline EVickiW

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #936 on: February 08, 2016, 10:23:46 AM »
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Nora Mae is receiving:

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She talks about Daddy, too!

This is from a note posted on her Facebook page on May 8, 2011:


"My Father whom we saw very little of...
James Norman Ball was born in California  to Violet L Stuart and Kenneth Arnold Ball on  the  22 of  July 1933.. He  passed  away  in 1995 in Visalia, Calif  He  served is  duty  in the  Navy later  to  become  a  welder and  was a  member  of  the International Brotherhood of  Boilermakers Welders.. he worked  hard   of  course  and  I  do  remember  all the  family picnics of the times.....Cottage  Lake  was a   place  we  all  went  as  well  Juanita Beach... Big truck  brought in the  booze  and  all the  eats... Kids played  in the  lakes  or  at the  play  grounds ... in the  sand  box I  met  many  of  the  generations  kids... and  swam  like a  fish when I  wished... ate  when  I  needed while  mom and  dad  went  talking  to  every  one  they  knew  or  wished to  push  the  buck  to   wish they  both  were  here  they  had  much to  tell...Mom would  pop in  to  check  on us.... knowing full well  we  would  be  ok  for she  had  taught  us   the  right  way  of what to do  in case of Danger.... I  am sure  things to  a  turn for the  worse  when they  stopped   holding the  parties.... I  remember  fights  as  well that has  broken  out  and  a  few  lids  getting hurt etc... gone  are the  days  of  fun  all cause  of  the  one  whom  love  to  pull  their  own  guns   their  way...."
You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
 

Offline EVickiW

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #937 on: February 08, 2016, 10:28:06 AM »
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Nora Mae is receiving:

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She talks about Daddy, too!

Photo of her father in 1977:
You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #938 on: February 10, 2016, 07:46:26 PM »
Timeline for Aerial and Ground Searches:

I am developing a timeline for the search for DB Cooper. How does this jibe with what we know:


1.  8:13 pm, 11. 24. 71, Wednesday evening - DB Cooper leaves Flight 305

2.  8:30 pm, 11. 24. 71, Wednesday evening, alive or dead, Cooper is on the ground.

3.  8 am, 11. 25. 71 - 11 hours after Cooper's exit from Flight 305, Thursday morning, Thanksgiving Day - first aerial surveillance over primary LZ is conducted by Himmelsbach. Suspended after 2.5 hours due to rain and clouds.

4. 1 pm, 11. 26. 71, - 40 hours after Cooper's exit, Friday afternoon the day after Thanksgiving Day - first ground surveillance teams enter the LZ-A near Amboy, WA.

5.  9 am, 11. 26. 71, aerial surveillance with helicopters is scheduled to begin but is interrupted throughout the holiday weekend repeatedly due to weather. Actual surveillance is limited to a few intermittent hours for a few days. Suspended on Monday, November 29, 1971.

6.  Monday morning, 11. 19. 71, all ground searches are canceled.

7. Monday, 11. 29. 71, large-scale aerial surveillance operation is conducted by fixed-wing aircraft for the entire length of Victor 23, from Seattle to Reno.

7.  Aerial surveillance continued by helo over Washougal River basin and Cascade foothills until approximately December 9, 1971.

7. March 18, 1972, ground search resumes in Amboy-Ariel area, conducted by 200 soldiers  from Ft. Lewis and dozens of FBI agents. Suspended after two weeks due to weather.

8.  April 18, 1972, ground search resumes in Amboy-Ariel area by military and FBI. Terminated after two weeks of fruitless searching.

Note: No confirmed check points or road blocks were established at any time in the LZ-A area.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 07:53:56 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #939 on: February 10, 2016, 11:57:15 PM »
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Timeline for Aerial and Ground Searches:

I am developing a timeline for the search for DB Cooper. How does this jibe with what we know:


1.  8:13 pm, 11. 24. 71, Wednesday evening - DB Cooper leaves Flight 305

2.  8:30 pm, 11. 24. 71, Wednesday evening, alive or dead, Cooper is on the ground.

3.  8 am, 11. 25. 71 - 11 hours after Cooper's exit from Flight 305, Thursday morning, Thanksgiving Day - first aerial surveillance over primary LZ is conducted by Himmelsbach. Suspended after 2.5 hours due to rain and clouds.

4. 1 pm, 11. 26. 71, - 40 hours after Cooper's exit, Friday afternoon the day after Thanksgiving Day - first ground surveillance teams enter the LZ-A near Amboy, WA.

5.  9 am, 11. 26. 71, aerial surveillance with helicopters is scheduled to begin but is interrupted throughout the holiday weekend repeatedly due to weather. Actual surveillance is limited to a few intermittent hours for a few days. Suspended on Monday, November 29, 1971.

6.  Monday morning, 11. 19. 71, all ground searches are canceled.

7. Monday, 11. 29. 71, large-scale aerial surveillance operation is conducted by fixed-wing aircraft for the entire length of Victor 23, from Seattle to Reno.

7.  Aerial surveillance continued by helo over Washougal River basin and Cascade foothills until approximately December 9, 1971.

7. March 18, 1972, ground search resumes in Amboy-Ariel area, conducted by 200 soldiers  from Ft. Lewis and dozens of FBI agents. Suspended after two weeks due to weather.

8.  April 18, 1972, ground search resumes in Amboy-Ariel area by military and FBI. Terminated after two weeks of fruitless searching.

Note: No confirmed check points or road blocks were established at any time in the LZ-A area.

So you are saying H was not in a helo the night of the hijacking, until the next day in the AM. And the nature of that event was ?

reprise -

snowmman

Mar 8, 2009, 2:22 PM
Post #8624 of 58140 (56051 views)
Shortcut
   
     going back to Norjak book to try to sort out heli confusion [In reply to]    
Went back to the Norjak book. This time, a close read gives me a better feel for what happened with the heli.

It does confirm two FBI agents in a heli on 11/24/71 like Jo said.
taking off from PDX (page 47). However it also says (page 47) they only had 30 minutes of flying time.

They apparently were in the air when the jet came close to Portland, because they debated what would happen if the bomb blew up the plane (page 47), raining debris.

When the chopper went back to PDX, Flight 305 was 60 miles south of them.

on page 51, it then says

"What do you think, Ralph? Did he make it" I was back at Portland International Aiport now, after the futile chase in the chopper.


This seems to imply that Ralph was in the chopper. But why did the prior reference just say "two FBI agents". Maybe Ralph was not in the chopper.

In any case. A chopper was in the air on 11/24/71.

Himmelsbach definitely flew his own plane the next day. (page 57)

H. takes off at 9 A.M. in his Taylorcraft (didn't have the Beech yet).
to search.

Because of the weather, he was only able to fly for 2-1/2 hours.

The helis were flying over the week after 11/24/71 (separate accounts in Norjak), with the helis from different sources (we've touched on this a little before).

But if he was flying his plane 11/25/71, it sounds unlikely that H. was in a heli on 11/25/71.

Maybe H. was not in a heli either 11/24/71 or 11/25/71. Don't know.


(This post was edited by snowmman on Mar 8, 2009, 2:37 PM)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 12:10:16 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #940 on: February 11, 2016, 03:55:59 AM »
I think you missed the point of my timeline, Georger. I am looking at aerial and ground searches in the landing zone. Himmelsbach, indeed, was in a helo the night of the skyjacking, but was flying over the city of Portland and lands south in an effort to rendezvous with Flight 305 and possible glimpse Cooper exiting.

According to his book, the first time he actually went looking for Cooper in the LZ was the next day in his private fixed-wing aircraft, as you report.

Hence, I assume that you concur that my report is accurate as written.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #941 on: February 11, 2016, 04:10:44 AM »
A further clarification of your comments is necessary, Georger.  Apparently the helos from the Oregon National Guard and the timber companies were all grounded as of Monday, November 29, except for those that flew Gary Tallis, according to his reports, and he flew only to the east of LZ-A.

Hence, your suggestion that:

The helis were flying over the week after 11/24/71 (separate accounts in Norjak), with the helis from different sources...

is inaccurate, according to accounts posted by Himmelsbach and Gray. As best I can determine, the helos only operated intermittently in LZ-A over the Thanksgiving Weekend, from November 26-28.

Specifically, Tallis said that he flew in helos based at the C&C at Woodland City Hall for "two weeks" after the skyjacking, but only went over the Cascades and Washougal River basin. He told me that he was looking primarily for a parachute and flew over a lot of snow. However, he didn't see anything germane to the skyjacking.
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #942 on: February 11, 2016, 12:21:02 PM »
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A further clarification of your comments is necessary, Georger.  Apparently the helos from the Oregon National Guard and the timber companies were all grounded as of Monday, November 29, except for those that flew Gary Tallis, according to his reports, and he flew only to the east of LZ-A.

Hence, your suggestion that:

The helis were flying over the week after 11/24/71 (separate accounts in Norjak), with the helis from different sources...

is inaccurate, according to accounts posted by Himmelsbach and Gray. As best I can determine, the helos only operated intermittently in LZ-A over the Thanksgiving Weekend, from November 26-28.

Specifically, Tallis said that he flew in helos based at the C&C at Woodland City Hall for "two weeks" after the skyjacking, but only went over the Cascades and Washougal River basin. He told me that he was looking primarily for a parachute and flew over a lot of snow. However, he didn't see anything germane to the skyjacking.

First it's not "my" report, it's posts by Snowmman, and second the title of your timeline list is: "Timeline for Aerial and Ground Searches:" Your title says nothing about "in the landing zone". Were the sewers examined "in the landing zone"? Where is the "landing zone" !? 

That's all the pusillanimity I have for the moment - you?
 ???
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 12:41:04 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #943 on: April 16, 2016, 09:34:55 PM »
Passengers

Perhaps this particular section might be the best place to put information on the passengers. I've begun to dig into this subject due to a variety of reasons.

First, I had backed off from the passengers because other researchers, especially Sluggo, had indicated that the privacy of the passengers was a significant concern. So, I followed suit. Further, my interests lay elsewhere, such as with the flight crew and the FBI. But now, I think it is time to focus more keenly on the passengers.

The passengers have a unique story to tell, plus their input could have significant evidentiary importance.

To begin, we have a huge problem with who sat in Row 18.  I just spoke with Michael Cooper, and he too, claims he sat across the aisle from DB Cooper. That makes three passengers sitting in Row 18, port side: M. Cooper, Bill Mitchell, and Robert Gregory, the latter according to FBI documents.

Michael says that another fellow sat in front of him, presumably Row 17, but he doesn't remember who or what he looked like. When I described Bill Mitchell, it didn't "ring any bells" for Michael.

Further, Michael says that he and the passengers stayed sitting in their original seats until just before they landed at Sea-Tac. "The Captain got on the intercom and told us to move up as we were coming in to land from the north," he told me.

Also, Michael described the boarding as unusual. He had gotten on Flight 305 in Missoula and so was on the plane when they landed in Portland. Apparently there was some kind of delay with initiating the boarding of the Portland passengers, and Michael and Tina Mucklow were standing at the aft stairs when the fellow to become known as DB Cooper came across the tarmac and tried to come up the stairs. Tina told him that the flight was not yet ready to accept the new passengers and she sent him back to the terminal.

Oddly, Michael says that the FBI never talked to him about the skyjacker or the skyjacking. Yet, he says that they told the media that the hijacker was named "Michael Cooper."

"They have never apologized for the mistaken identity," Michael told me, "and I almost lost my job over it."

Apparently, Michael's local newspaper in  Missoula, Montana, "The Missoulian" carried a front page story about the skyjacking and his mistaken role in it. Michael was teaching high school at the time, and he says it took two days to sort out the mistaken identity issue with his employers.

Michael also says that he had a minor interaction with DB Cooper. Michael says that he rose to use the rear lavatory during the flight, and Tina stood and asked him to re-take his seat. Michael was miffed and refused. Tina looked at DB Cooper, who nodded an approval, and Tina allowed Michael to proceed to the lav. After that, Michel assumed that DB Cooper was some kind of Northwest Orient official and traveling on important company business.

Similarly, Michael never knew or suspected that he was being hijacked. In fact, he told me that he didn't know that he had been hijacked until he was at his sister's house and saw the news on TV. I find that incredulous.

I tried to clarify with Michael exactly what his awareness was of his in-flight experiences. Our conversation was somewhat circular. Michael did confirm that the FBI did perform a role-call on the bus and asked for a "Cooper D." No one answered, and after a pause Michael spoke and said that he was "Michael Cooper." However, that did not seem to trigger any kind of awareness to Michael.

Surprisingly, Michael was not interrogated by the FBI afterwards, and was not part of the "Magic Five," as notated by Sluggo: those five passengers who self-identified themselves to the FBI when they got into the Seattle terminal as having seen or interacted with the hijacker: Bill Mitchel, Robert Gregory, Georger Labissioniere, Cord Harms Zem-Spreckel, and Nancy House.

Hence, Michael Cooper did not present himself as an eye-witness to the FBI even though he is now saying that he sat next to the hijacker and saw DB Cooper try to get on the plane initially.

Along those lines, Sluggo also indicated to me that the pronouncements of Richard and Barbara Simons are highly suspect since neither one of them presented themselves to the FBI in Sea-Tac, even though they later told "In Search Of..." that they had extensive interactions with the skyjacker.

Similarly, I find it strange that the FBI would not single out Michael Cooper for special questioning, especially when they had enough internal confusion about who-was-whom and told at least "The Missoulian" that Michael Cooper was the hijacker.

Basically, this whole Michael Cooper business is One Big Cooper Kerfuffle.

Simply, it's Business as Usual in Cooper World.

Sigh. It's definitely time to talk with Alice Hancock...I guess I've got to send her a copy of my book and break the ice a little with her....after all, she told the feds that nobody got closer to Coop than Row 14.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 09:45:58 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #944 on: April 16, 2016, 09:44:56 PM »
I seem to recall in the Harrison notes they mention another Cooper that was arrested for a DUI, or something like that. I'll have to look again.

Once again, we have someone who was partial to the crime, or witnessed the crime, but can't remember the people around him. some people who have suspects in mind seem to have people with remarkable memory..

Does Mr. Cooper have interest in the case?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 09:46:40 PM by Shutter »