Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

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Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1830358 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #885 on: November 18, 2015, 05:27:22 PM »
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A fellow by the name of Ed Kingrey was an ATC for two stretches of time at Larsen AFB/Moses Lake, apparently. First in the Air Force, and then a second tour as a civilian. What did he see? What did he know? Some questions, no answers as of this moment.

That would be handy info...
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #886 on: December 03, 2015, 09:29:48 PM »
DNA

Andrade is helping me get the 2nd Edition ready for print, on paper(!) and the section on DNA needs work. He has suggested that I look at the existing information on documented screw-ups at the FBI's Crime Lab, and other forensic debacles. I'm taking a look, but that is a huge topic and I wonder how much it might apply to Norjak. But, if you have any information, thoughts, or perspectives to share, here is where I'm at on the DNA question:


Chapter 15

Emergence of DNA as a forensic tool



One of the primary dynamics fueling the resurgence of the Cooper case has been the widespread use of DNA to evaluate suspects. Developed initially in the 1980s, DNA analysis was in full swing by the late 1990s and with it came the ability to trump Cooper’s careful efforts to mask his identity. In essence, DNA testing has re-opened the case and the FBI has re-examined its top Cooper suspects.

However, the DNA in Norjak is suspect. Case agent Larry Carr told me in 2008 that the DNA sample now being used by the FBI to compare Cooper suspects comes from epithelial cells found on the clasp of the clip-on tie. He also acknowledged that the skin samples on the clasp could be DB Cooper’s, or any number of people who have handled the tie since the recovery in Reno. “The DNA could be Cooper’s, or not,” Carr told me, acknowledging the unreliably of this sample.

More troubling is the fact that not all sources of DNA are equal. Apparently, the best samples come from bodily fluids, such as saliva. Next are skin tissues, such as epithelial cells. Last are hair samples, which were reported obtained from the head-rest cloth of seat 18-E.

Compounding the problem, Carr confirmed that the eight cigarette butts, retrieved in Reno from the ashtray in 18-E, were now missing. In addition, Carr acknowledged that he and the Seattle FO never had possession of them, and that the cigarettes had been stored in the Las Vegas FO. Why Carr and other Norjak case agents in Seattle did not have absolute authority to gather all pertinent evidence from all FBI field offices has never been explained. Nevertheless, the best source for DB Cooper's DNA is gone.

But information from the Formans put this catastrophe into an even darker light—the best DNA samples went missing just as their contributions were called upon to solve the case. In our first meeting, Ron and Pat Forman told me that the FBI did have the Reno cigarette butts as of 2000 and had tested it for DNA, developing a highly reliable profile of DB Cooper's genetic markers. The Formans say they learned this from a KING-5 TV news broadcast in 200,1 describing how the FBI had profiled Cooper’s DNA from dried saliva taken from the Reno cigarette butts.

I have not been able to confirm this claim by searching KING-5 archives, but the Formans heard the broadcast just as they were beginning the research on their Barb Dayton book so they fully expected that the documentation would be available to them as investigators. They were shocked in 2006 when Special Agent Jeremy Blauser told them that it wasn’t, which suggests that the documentation on the cigarette saliva DNA tests is also missing.

Although the DNA evidence that seems to be available at this time is from a questionable sample, it is sufficient, apparently, for the FBI to advance the hunt for DB Cooper.







 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #887 on: December 03, 2015, 09:31:01 PM »
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A fellow by the name of Ed Kingrey was an ATC for two stretches of time at Larsen AFB/Moses Lake, apparently. First in the Air Force, and then a second tour as a civilian. What did he see? What did he know? Some questions, no answers as of this moment.

That would be handy info...

Nothing new on Moses Lake or the ATC guy. I've been a little distracted recently...You, too???
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #888 on: December 03, 2015, 11:59:35 PM »
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DNA

Andrade is helping me get the 2nd Edition ready for print, on paper(!) and the section on DNA needs work. He has suggested that I look at the existing information on documented screw-ups at the FBI's Crime Lab, and other forensic debacles. I'm taking a look, but that is a huge topic and I wonder how much it might apply to Norjak. But, if you have any information, thoughts, or perspectives to share, here is where I'm at on the DNA question:


Chapter 15

Emergence of DNA as a forensic tool



One of the primary dynamics fueling the resurgence of the Cooper case has been the widespread use of DNA to evaluate suspects. Developed initially in the 1980s, DNA analysis was in full swing by the late 1990s and with it came the ability to trump Cooper’s careful efforts to mask his identity. In essence, DNA testing has re-opened the case and the FBI has re-examined its top Cooper suspects.

However, the DNA in Norjak is suspect. Case agent Larry Carr told me in 2008 that the DNA sample now being used by the FBI to compare Cooper suspects comes from epithelial cells found on the clasp of the clip-on tie. He also acknowledged that the skin samples on the clasp could be DB Cooper’s, or any number of people who have handled the tie since the recovery in Reno. “The DNA could be Cooper’s, or not,” Carr told me, acknowledging the unreliably of this sample.

More troubling is the fact that not all sources of DNA are equal. Apparently, the best samples come from bodily fluids, such as saliva. Next are skin tissues, such as epithelial cells. Last are hair samples, which were reported obtained from the head-rest cloth of seat 18-E.

Compounding the problem, Carr confirmed that the eight cigarette butts, retrieved in Reno from the ashtray in 18-E, were now missing. In addition, Carr acknowledged that he and the Seattle FO never had possession of them, and that the cigarettes had been stored in the Las Vegas FO. Why Carr and other Norjak case agents in Seattle did not have absolute authority to gather all pertinent evidence from all FBI field offices has never been explained. Nevertheless, the best source for DB Cooper's DNA is gone.

But information from the Formans put this catastrophe into an even darker light—the best DNA samples went missing just as their contributions were called upon to solve the case. In our first meeting, Ron and Pat Forman told me that the FBI did have the Reno cigarette butts as of 2000 and had tested it for DNA, developing a highly reliable profile of DB Cooper's genetic markers. The Formans say they learned this from a KING-5 TV news broadcast in 200,1 describing how the FBI had profiled Cooper’s DNA from dried saliva taken from the Reno cigarette butts.

I have not been able to confirm this claim by searching KING-5 archives, but the Formans heard the broadcast just as they were beginning the research on their Barb Dayton book so they fully expected that the documentation would be available to them as investigators. They were shocked in 2006 when Special Agent Jeremy Blauser told them that it wasn’t, which suggests that the documentation on the cigarette saliva DNA tests is also missing.

Although the DNA evidence that seems to be available at this time is from a questionable sample, it is sufficient, apparently, for the FBI to advance the hunt for DB Cooper.

You might want to move this over to the DNA Thread?

Did anyone other than the Formans see (record) the KING-5 newscast on Cooper/FBI dna, alleged? Im a little surprised this hasn't been mentioned by anyone through the years?

« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 12:12:20 AM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #889 on: December 04, 2015, 03:54:05 PM »
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DNA

Andrade is helping me get the 2nd Edition ready for print, on paper(!) and the section on DNA needs work. He has suggested that I look at the existing information on documented screw-ups at the FBI's Crime Lab, and other forensic debacles. I'm taking a look, but that is a huge topic and I wonder how much it might apply to Norjak. But, if you have any information, thoughts, or perspectives to share, here is where I'm at on the DNA question:


Chapter 15

Emergence of DNA as a forensic tool



One of the primary dynamics fueling the resurgence of the Cooper case has been the widespread use of DNA to evaluate suspects. Developed initially in the 1980s, DNA analysis was in full swing by the late 1990s and with it came the ability to trump Cooper’s careful efforts to mask his identity. In essence, DNA testing has re-opened the case and the FBI has re-examined its top Cooper suspects.

However, the DNA in Norjak is suspect. Case agent Larry Carr told me in 2008 that the DNA sample now being used by the FBI to compare Cooper suspects comes from epithelial cells found on the clasp of the clip-on tie. He also acknowledged that the skin samples on the clasp could be DB Cooper’s, or any number of people who have handled the tie since the recovery in Reno. “The DNA could be Cooper’s, or not,” Carr told me, acknowledging the unreliably of this sample.

More troubling is the fact that not all sources of DNA are equal. Apparently, the best samples come from bodily fluids, such as saliva. Next are skin tissues, such as epithelial cells. Last are hair samples, which were reported obtained from the head-rest cloth of seat 18-E.

Compounding the problem, Carr confirmed that the eight cigarette butts, retrieved in Reno from the ashtray in 18-E, were now missing. In addition, Carr acknowledged that he and the Seattle FO never had possession of them, and that the cigarettes had been stored in the Las Vegas FO. Why Carr and other Norjak case agents in Seattle did not have absolute authority to gather all pertinent evidence from all FBI field offices has never been explained. Nevertheless, the best source for DB Cooper's DNA is gone.

But information from the Formans put this catastrophe into an even darker light—the best DNA samples went missing just as their contributions were called upon to solve the case. In our first meeting, Ron and Pat Forman told me that the FBI did have the Reno cigarette butts as of 2000 and had tested it for DNA, developing a highly reliable profile of DB Cooper's genetic markers. The Formans say they learned this from a KING-5 TV news broadcast in 200,1 describing how the FBI had profiled Cooper’s DNA from dried saliva taken from the Reno cigarette butts.

I have not been able to confirm this claim by searching KING-5 archives, but the Formans heard the broadcast just as they were beginning the research on their Barb Dayton book so they fully expected that the documentation would be available to them as investigators. They were shocked in 2006 when Special Agent Jeremy Blauser told them that it wasn’t, which suggests that the documentation on the cigarette saliva DNA tests is also missing.

Although the DNA evidence that seems to be available at this time is from a questionable sample, it is sufficient, apparently, for the FBI to advance the hunt for DB Cooper.

Well ... I have hard information about this, from KING-5 and several others. Briefly, the Forman's report to you is not accurate. 

1. The KING-5 story was in 2003, not in 2001.
2. The story said that cigarette butts collected at Reno are lost or missing (so far). 
3. The story mentioned the word 'saliva' but specifically stated that the profile the FBI has comes from epithelial cells collected off the tie clasp the FBI has, not from saliva on the cigarette butts. 
4. The story did not say the FBI has a dna profile from saliva on cigarette butts - as the Formans and now you report.

I have talked to a number of people about this including the reporter at KING-5 that did the story.

Nothing new has changed since the FBI released it's original story about having a 'partial CODIS profile' obtained from epithelial cells collected off the tie clasp. 'Partial CODIS profile' is a technical term, see for an explanation:  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

 :)

More may follow -  8)

 
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 05:48:47 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #890 on: December 04, 2015, 06:06:04 PM »
Thanks, Georger. Whom did you speak with? I'd love to follow-up with them.
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #891 on: December 04, 2015, 11:55:44 PM »
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Thanks, Georger. Whom did you speak with? I'd love to follow-up with them.

There will be follow up. I have transcripts of the stories (plural) that were broadcast by KING-5. I intend to post those and other new info in due course.   
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 12:06:47 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #892 on: December 05, 2015, 03:06:38 AM »
DNA

Here's the email I received from Ron and Pat today about the cigarette butts:

"The king 5 news story we heard was before 2003. We both remember Dennis Bounds reporting that the FBI now had DNA from the Raleigh cigarettes. We remember it because we were excited that we could finally prove that barb was Cooper. Barb was still alive at the time. We also saw articles back then about the fbi doing comparisons to the DNA from the Raleigh cigarettes.

We apparently missed the 2003 story that the cigarettes were lost and there was a partial from the tie. We found out about that much after 2003. "

I think Georger needs to go back farther in his research.
Sent from my iPhone
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #893 on: December 05, 2015, 03:52:52 AM »
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DNA

Here's the email I received from Ron and Pat today about the cigarette butts:

"The king 5 news story we heard was before 2003. We both remember Dennis Bounds reporting that the FBI now had DNA from the Raleigh cigarettes. We remember it because we were excited that we could finally prove that barb was Cooper. Barb was still alive at the time. We also saw articles back then about the fbi doing comparisons to the DNA from the Raleigh cigarettes.

We apparently missed the 2003 story that the cigarettes were lost and there was a partial from the tie. We found out about that much after 2003. "

I think Georger needs to go back farther in his research.
Sent from my iPhone

KING-5 already did a search and found nothing like what you and the Formans describe in 2001. A newscast covering the same material did occur in 2003.

Rather that placing the burden on us, when you and the Forman's have documented the Forman's claim please let us know because nobody at King-5 or elsewhere is going to pursue this further, in your behalf - there are other more important things to do. If I come across anything new I will let everyone know.

Good luck with your search for documentation !

 8)
 
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 05:45:06 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #894 on: December 06, 2015, 11:09:19 AM »
Here is some scary reality of this world....


 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #895 on: February 05, 2016, 03:28:53 PM »
Sacred Cows in the Cooper case -

There are a lot of scared cows in the Cooper case, both of the two-legged variety and of the ideological variety.

One sacred cow is that Cooper died in the jump, or did not die, whichever side of the issue you care to climb into a cave with and avoid - entirely! This in spite of the fact serious experts have testified the Cooper jump was doable with the parachute he chose. These people say Cooper had at least a 50-50 chance, if not a better. Rarer still, a few of these people say the fact of Cooper money turning up at Tena Bar "is" evidence that Cooper survived. The premise is, the one requires the other.

The FBI still maintains that Cooper died in the jump despite any evidence that happened. It is likewise a fact that no major researcher or book writer has addressed this issue at all! That includes Tom Kaye, Geoff Gray, Bruce Smith or anyone else you could name. The FBI's public position is that DB Cooper died in the jump and nobody has presented any evidence (in their research or books) that anyone at the FBI ever took a different position, or that there was ever serious debate within the FBI or in any other agency about this central issue. No researcher or book writer, for example, has found any evidence that when the Cooper money was found at Tena Bar far from the nominated dropzone, that there was any discussion that the fact of the money itself far from the dropzone, indicated Cooper had survived to travel! Cooper surviving or any serious discussion about it, is just missing from the literature.

People simply lump the issue into the 'undecidable' category claiming there is no evidence to base a decision on. People would rather invoke a 'Washougal Washdown Theory', look for changes in the flight path, or claim a money-plant theory, or spend time pursuing the color of Cooper's suit jacket or the color of contact lenses he may have used over his eyes, or any of a host of other spurious issues, and apparently no researcher found one file in the FBI archive that explores or even mentions the possibility that Cooper survived the jump or that the FBI ever seriously looked into the issue ?

Well we do know that the FBI asked hospitals and agencies etc to look for any report of any 'dead body found', anywhere. And this effort continued for a long time after the hijacking. We know that when the Cooper money was found, this 'dead body' search-in-records was renewed and expanded specifically to include any dead bodies found in-or-around the Columbia River, in the whole area of Portland-Vancouver. We don't know what other searches were conducted or interviews conducted, but at least the discovery of Cooper money rekindled the search for 'a dead body'. Never mind 'a living body'!  :)  A robbery?  :) A fight?  :) A rumor of a struggle and a fight that had happened years before in the Vancouver-Tena Bar area?  :) No files were found at Seattle by two researchers that documents any of this?

So, we assume Cooper died in the jump.
         
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #896 on: February 05, 2016, 04:06:29 PM »
Georger wrote:
"One sacred cow is that Cooper died in the jump, or did not die, whichever side of the issue you care to climb into a cave with and avoid - entirely! This in spite of the fact serious experts have testified the Cooper jump was doable with the parachute he chose. These people say Cooper had at least a 50-50 chance, if not a better. "

Very survivable, I'd put it better than 50-50. Many hundreds of skydivers have exited DC 9 and B 727 jets. Not one fatality.

If he pulled off the stairs, emulating the Thailand 727 S/L jumps, he would almost certainly land alive.

If he landed in water at night, all bets are off. But the chances of that happening are quite low, as G pointed out long ago.

Sheridan Peterson had the requisite skills and knowledge, so did Ted Braden.

If you knew about the Thailand jumps, you'd have a big advantage. You'd know that an immediate deployment wouldn't be a big deal. It would NOT blow up the canopy but rather it wold result in a gentle "squidding" deployment. Both Peterson and Braden were in Vietnam and might have heard details about those Thailand 727 jumps.

Might DBC have been a whuffo, got disoriented in freefall and failed to pull? Sure, that's possible, but the chances of his body remaining undiscovered so many years in the probable exit area is low.

Both Peterson and Braden were seasoned wilderness jumpers. Both had night jump experience. Both needed money.

Duane had a relative who sold paint  to Boeing. That puts him in the know also.  ;)

377
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #897 on: February 05, 2016, 08:52:31 PM »
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The FBI still maintains that Cooper died in the jump despite any evidence that happened. It is likewise a fact that no major researcher or book writer has addressed this issue at all! That includes Tom Kaye, Geoff Gray, Bruce Smith or anyone else you could name....

You got me thinking, G. Perhaps I'll add an "afterword" to the hard copy edition that I am preparing for POD at Amazon - it should be ready in about two weeks.

Simply, I will say that I think:

1. Cooper made it, was probably SOG or SF and well-trained for the rigors of the entire operation: ie: sitting on a plane for three hours with folks he said he was prepared to kill, jumping at night in the rain and cold.

2. Probably had an extraction team, also made of SOG guys - this would explain how nothing has been found - no body, chute, bomb, briefcase, etc. It all got cleaned up.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 08:58:21 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #898 on: February 05, 2016, 09:49:57 PM »
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The FBI still maintains that Cooper died in the jump despite any evidence that happened. It is likewise a fact that no major researcher or book writer has addressed this issue at all! That includes Tom Kaye, Geoff Gray, Bruce Smith or anyone else you could name....

You got me thinking, G. Perhaps I'll add an "afterword" to the hard copy edition that I am preparing for POD at Amazon - it should be ready in about two weeks.

Simply, I will say that I think:

1. Cooper made it, was probably SOG or SF and well-trained for the rigors of the entire operation: ie: sitting on a plane for three hours with folks he said he was prepared to kill, jumping at night in the rain and cold.

2. Probably had an extraction team, also made of SOG guys - this would explain how nothing has been found - no body, chute, bomb, briefcase, etc. It all got cleaned up.

Bruce, since there is no way at all that Cooper could have known his location when he jumped, and neither could his "extraction" crew, just exactly where was the clean up?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #899 on: February 05, 2016, 10:02:44 PM »
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The FBI still maintains that Cooper died in the jump despite any evidence that happened. It is likewise a fact that no major researcher or book writer has addressed this issue at all! That includes Tom Kaye, Geoff Gray, Bruce Smith or anyone else you could name....

You got me thinking, G. Perhaps I'll add an "afterword" to the hard copy edition that I am preparing for POD at Amazon - it should be ready in about two weeks.

Simply, I will say that I think:

1. Cooper made it, was probably SOG or SF and well-trained for the rigors of the entire operation: ie: sitting on a plane for three hours with folks he said he was prepared to kill, jumping at night in the rain and cold.

2. Probably had an extraction team, also made of SOG guys - this would explain how nothing has been found - no body, chute, bomb, briefcase, etc. It all got cleaned up.

Bruce, since there is no way at all that Cooper could have known his location when he jumped, and neither could his "extraction" crew, just exactly where was the clean up?


Would a well trained military soldier do the things Cooper did?

1) The clothing.
2) The chute selection (fronts)
3) The lack of any type of flight plan


McCoy was military, and did it the way it should have been done. I think there is a noticeable separation between the two.