Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1830273 times)

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #855 on: October 01, 2015, 11:42:49 AM »
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Probably a result of the film crew. He told me he could not talk about things until the show was broadcast.

I take that as good news. I trust he will be more forthcoming at that time.

I really believe he does not remember things vividly. He looked at a few pictures and just said he could not remember a face, but could remember the small details. He is adamant about the "turkey gobble" and "geeky" features. He told us he wrote a paper in Italian for one of his college writing classes. The teacher read it and pulled him aside and asked if it was really true....it would be great if he still had a copy of it. Can you imagine the information contained in that paper?

Where are the pdf's of the FBI/passenger interviews?   8)
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #856 on: October 01, 2015, 11:56:44 PM »
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I really believe he does not remember things vividly. He looked at a few pictures and just said he could not remember a face, but could remember the small details. He is adamant about the "turkey gobble" and "geeky" features. He told us he wrote a paper in Italian for one of his college writing classes. The teacher read it and pulled him aside and asked if it was really true....it would be great if he still had a copy of it. Can you imagine the information contained in that paper?

EVick, I agree with you. Bill seems to have some soft spots in memory recall, and he also seems uncomfortable about the subject of DB Cooper in a general kind of way. But he is a nice guy and very personable. It's a strange mix, and it's why I let him work his way into his story. I didn't push for details on what DBC looked like, etc, much to the distain of others (GEORGER!!!), so that Bill would "warm up to the task at hand."

Afterwards, I thought I would be able to have a face-to-face with Bill, offering beers and a meal. I never got the chance, though, due to the kerfuffle with Jo Weber. Jo called me a couple of days ago (surprise!) and she was on one of her usual fishing trips. Also as usual, I cut her off and asked questions about her - one of which was why she thought her comments to Bill rattled him so much that he severed all contact with me.

Jo, as her usual, totally obfuscated, and at first said that she had never called Bill, then said she didn't remember what she said, and finally, said she had no idea why Bill did whatever it was that I said he did.

Another wonderfully satisfying conversation with Ms. Cooper. Sigh.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 11:57:29 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #857 on: October 02, 2015, 04:23:54 PM »
Where did 727s fly dirty?

A reader at the Mountain News has triggered an interesting conversation about the usage of 727s. The Big Question is: Where were 727s used? Besides Boeing's Moses Lake facility, where else did 727 fly as Cooper instructed?

Was it in Vietnam, as long thought, although unconfirmed, to drop SOG troopers into the boonies?

Or could the 727s be used in a different manner - such as mimicking a commercial flight over Russia, eastern Europe, commie-countries, etc., and then when approaching the drop zone switch out of commercial flight parameters of 30,000 feet and 500+mph, to the established metrics of flaps 15, wheels down and locked, 10,000 feet, unpressurized cabin, and speed about 200 mph.

Then, once the commando(s) were deployed - for a hit or another small covert op - the 727 quickly resumed commercial flight characteristics.

Bottom Line: If you had a 727 and you knew how to jump from it, how would you use it?

The more I think about SOG, the less I think SOG was involved with 727s. Maj. John Plaster says "no way," and the helos and C-130s seemed to be adequate for what SOG was tasked with.

So the question is - what kinds of ops preferred a 727?  Or even more compelling - what kind of op REQUIRED a 727?

If we can find where the 727s flew as Cooper demanded, then maybe we can find Cooper.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 04:24:56 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #858 on: October 02, 2015, 05:38:16 PM »
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Where did 727s fly dirty?

A reader at the Mountain News has triggered an interesting conversation about the usage of 727s. The Big Question is: Where were 727s used? Besides Boeing's Moses Lake facility, where else did 727 fly as Cooper instructed?

Was it in Vietnam, as long thought, although unconfirmed, to drop SOG troopers into the boonies?

Or could the 727s be used in a different manner - such as mimicking a commercial flight over Russia, eastern Europe, commie-countries, etc., and then when approaching the drop zone switch out of commercial flight parameters of 30,000 feet and 500+mph, to the established metrics of flaps 15, wheels down and locked, 10,000 feet, unpressurized cabin, and speed about 200 mph.

Then, once the commando(s) were deployed - for a hit or another small covert op - the 727 quickly resumed commercial flight characteristics.

Bottom Line: If you had a 727 and you knew how to jump from it, how would you use it?

The more I think about SOG, the less I think SOG was involved with 727s. Maj. John Plaster says "no way," and the helos and C-130s seemed to be adequate for what SOG was tasked with.

So the question is - what kinds of ops preferred a 727?  Or even more compelling - what kind of op REQUIRED a 727?

If we can find where the 727s flew as Cooper demanded, then maybe we can find Cooper.

Bruce, I have to agree with Major Plaster that 727s would not be used for standard military operations.  The military had plenty of helicopters and other fixed wing aircraft in the 1960s that were better for military operations.

In my opinion, the 727s were probably used by organizations, such as the CIA, in third world countries such as in Africa and South America.  Quite a few of the early 727s seemed to have been ordered by airlines in Africa.

Congo Airlines, in a very troubled country in that time frame, ordered several 727s and one of them was shot down on take-off killing 40+ people.  If the CIA did use those aircraft, the owner would probably have a "home office address" listed as an untraceable post office box in some unknown location.  And there would not be anything showing on their aircraft exteriors to suggest that it was connected to any military organization.   
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 05:39:38 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #859 on: October 02, 2015, 07:13:44 PM »
I agree with part of what you are saying, Robert. Maybe DB Cooper learned his 727 chops in Africa. Maybe a 727 would be the preferred method of inserting commandos into an isolated area - let's say to train locals to fight nearby insurgents - but instead of helos and C-130s it would be better to use a more-distantly based, further reaching airplane, such as the 727.

I sense that the 727s would be based far from the actual combat. Perhaps Europe and then fly to the Congo? Or South Africa to the Congo? Perhaps the 727s were parked in places where their presence would not attract attention and American commandos and their support personnel could gather in relative safety.

What I disagree with, Robert, is your cynicism about getting information on these kinds of operations. Yes, I do believe that the 727s DB Cooper was familiar with, were registered to dummy corporations and other shielded organizations with bogus mailing addresses.

But, as we discovered with SOG, perhaps the guys who flew these planes, or served drinks to these guys - or even the commandos themselves - would like to talk about their activities. What I sense is out there is a Super-SOG unit, and maybe Cooper was part of it.

One scenario - An elite SOG unit that would fly over Hanoi in a 727 to be inserted and kill Ho Chi Minh. Then they'd work their way to safety through CIA safe houses, living off the land, floating down rivers in inflatables, etc.

Or insert into a military area to kill Gen Giap and other senior officials. De-capitate the NVA?

I'm not saying these tasks would be easy - or even a feasible. I'm just trying to figure out how 727s would be used. Clearly, standard SOG recon missions did not need a 727.

So, Robert, I agree with you when you agree with Maj. Plaster. 727s were not used in standard military operations. So where would they be used, do you think? Congo? Okay, give me a scenario? Then we can go look for the guys who participated in that operation.

I'll be sending a link to this page off to Billy Waugh and other SOG guys I've talked with. That might get us closer to where we need to go.


CALLING SNOWMMAN:

Whaddaya think, Snow? Can you find us a theater of operation for a 727 flying with the Cooper metrics?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 07:14:18 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #860 on: October 02, 2015, 07:24:15 PM »
Quote
In the end only a handful of 727s were ever operated by the US military under the C-22 designation, and these aircraft were only used for cargo and personnel transport as far as I am aware of. Thus the USAF may have passed up a plentiful, relatively economic and FAA certified airframe with great multi-role potential and little need for modification.


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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #861 on: October 02, 2015, 07:30:03 PM »
Apparently, the CIA used the 727 after the war as well...

"Operation Toilet Seat"

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #862 on: October 02, 2015, 07:33:02 PM »
New York Times 1991

Quote
In 1971, no civilian knew that a 727 could be flown with the aft stairway extended. But 727's had been used in Vietnam for years to drop agents behind enemy lines. Only the C.I.A. knew this. And what important personage was, even then, being groomed to head the Agency? And was also a World War II pilot shot down in battle, which gave him the necessary knowledge of parachutes and survival skills? Add the choice of suit and loafers, doubtless influenced by years at Andover and Yale, and it's clear that, once again, all roads lead to the White House.

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« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 07:33:45 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #863 on: October 02, 2015, 07:37:57 PM »
Here is an interesting PDF about the CIA and the 727. I think we all have seen it, but I'm going to put it on the website...


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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #864 on: October 02, 2015, 11:36:34 PM »
Thanks, Shut, for these links. Here's another one. It feels we're getting closer to the action.

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This an account of the CIA operations in Laos. The above story is about one agent, Jack Jolis, who ran a program called Rascals, which was very similar to SOG's RT program. However, the Rascals were entirely Hmong soldiers who were inserted into NVA territory to plant electronic tech to signal targets to the B-52s flying overhead.

The Rascals carried no weapons - only a pocketful of signaling devices. They would mingle with the locals, looking like the locals, and would didi-mau after 24-36 hours to an extraction point, where Jolis and the helos from Air America would pick them up.

No 727s, but then no American soldiers, and no restraints on operations. Jolis says he never lost a Hmong, but two CIA agents got shot-up in their base in the sw of Laos, known as Long Thien.

So, I've got emails out to Jolis, who is my age, and the writer who posted Jolis' account, a Brit named Peter Alan Lloyd.  I've also contacted Billy Waugh (of course), and Everett Johnson - the World Airways pilot who flew 727s in Yemen in the post-Vietnam era of CIA ops.

Lloyd's book sounds interesting. It's a story about a European hiker roaming around Southeast Asia and coming across the remnants of the Vietnam War, and all the other atrocities of that time, such as the Khmer Rouge. He's got a few books, but his first catches my attention: BACK: Across the Fence, which is the term SOG troopers used to describe their recons outside of Vietnam.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 11:37:48 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #865 on: October 04, 2015, 09:50:24 AM »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #866 on: October 04, 2015, 03:57:02 PM »
So, that's where the twenties went!
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #867 on: October 09, 2015, 07:09:27 PM »
I'm back looking for a high-rez pix of composite B with sunglasses. (Thanks, Shut, for your contribution six months ago, but I'm having trouble getting the color up).

I'm putting together the hard-copy edition and I need a better pix than what I have.  Thanks-

Crap, I did it again. I posted on your post  :-[
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 07:41:24 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #868 on: October 10, 2015, 07:41:36 PM »
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I'm back looking for a high-rez pix of composite B with sunglasses. (Thanks, Shut, for your contribution six months ago, but I'm having trouble getting the color up).

I'm putting together the hard-copy edition and I need a better pix than what I have.  Thanks-

Crap, I did it again. I posted on your post  :-[


Find the best one online, and go to an online photo editor and spiff it up....
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #869 on: October 11, 2015, 03:56:11 AM »
Yup. I gotta do something like that.

Thanks.