The pythons are here to stay, I'm afraid. Maybe one day, I'll put my boots back on and head out on another hunt just to help out. lol

Regarding the Soderlind notes. In FBI 10, p. 486 to 493, there is a type-written summary of Soderlind's notes. A couple of things to point out:

1. At 810 it is noted that the crew "reported oscillations in the cabin rate of climb indicator". Nothing new here obviously. However, Anderson stated in 2014 that the oscillations were seen on gauges only and not felt physically. Ensuing "bump" was physically felt and heard by the crew. There is no notation regarding a report of a "pressure bump" which Anderson and Rataczak both said was filed with Soderlind. If the oscillations were reported at 8:10 (later amended by Soderlind to 8:11) then how long did they last? When was "bump" reported? Were the oscillations and bump reported simultaneously? Doesn't appear that way based on FBI 41, p. 32.

Soderlind does seem to provide an accurate explanation for the oscillations: "This is probably due to HJ weight now on stairs, stairs extending further, resultant effect on cabin pressure". But he provides no similar explanation for the bump. Did the crew combine the two events? Did Soderlind combine them? Did he confuse them?

Here is how Anderson describes it:

"...we may have reported the oscillations/pressure changes once, but we were busy and didn’t report it multiple times. We weren’t sure what was going on. When the final bump happened, which we detected with our ears, we were surprised, and we didn’t report it right away.  Rataczak finally reported the bump via radio."

Anderson's timeline is:

1. Report of oscillations
2. Undetermined amount of time passes while oscillations continue
3. Final bump happens; oscillations cease
4. Undetermined amount of time passes
5. Rataczak reports bump via radio

It would seem definite that the report of the oscillations on the gauges happened at 8:11. There are three questions are:

how much time passes until the bump happened?
how much time passes before Rataczak informed Soderlind?
why isn't Rataczak's report of the bump not mentioned in notes, but the oscillations are?

I'm not drawing conclusions here...just asking questions.

In Rataczak's statement to the FBI, he is quoted as saying "they had not yet reached Portland proper, but were definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity thereof."

Not sure where the "could see the lights of Portland" statement comes from?

Regardless, assuming the 8:11 time for the bump is accurate, would the FBI dropzone be considered the "suburbs of Portland" or the "immediate vicinity".  I'm not sure it would be characterized that way today, let alone in 1971 when the area was not as built out.

My point is that the timeline of events and reports don't seem to make sense given the accepted FBI dropzone. Again, not drawing conclusions, just asking questions.

 Just stick with the actual facts and you are going to end up with the right conclusions.

It is unlikely that the flight crew could see the light bulbs anywhere since they were above two or three cloud layers plus an overcast.  However, they probably meant they could see the glow from those light bulbs through the clouds.  And the Portland/Vancouver area was built out sufficiently in 1971 for that to happen.

Now about those oscillations, Cooper would have to get down below the aft stair hinge point to lower the stairs sufficiently so that he could throw out the items he didn't want to attach to himself.  This would include such things as the briefcase and its contents.  Even going down a couple of steps past that hinge point is going to lower the stairs enough to create pressure changes in the cabin that would be noticeable in the cockpit cabin altitude instrument.

After cleaning up his cabin area, and either forgetting his tie or being unable to locate it, Cooper was ready to jump with the backpack parachute, money bag, and maybe other things tied to himself.  But this time, he goes way down the steps as far as he can, perhaps to the very end of the stairs, and jumps.  Cooper's weight on the stairs will not lower them to the same degree as they are lowered on the ground.  But when Cooper steps off those stairs they slam up into their closed position but don't lock there.  They open slightly and are kept in that position by the 194-knot airstream for the rest of the flight to Reno.  There is nothing to create further oscillations in the cabin pressure or to cause a bump.  End of story and Soderlind gives that time as not later than 8:12 PM PST.     

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In Rataczak's statement to the FBI, he is quoted as saying "they had not yet reached Portland proper, but were definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity thereof."

Not sure where the "could see the lights of Portland" statement comes from?

Regardless, assuming the 8:11 time for the bump is accurate, would the FBI dropzone be considered the "suburbs of Portland" or the "immediate vicinity".  I'm not sure it would be characterized that way today, let alone in 1971 when the area was not as built out.

My point is that the timeline of events and reports don't seem to make sense given the accepted FBI dropzone. Again, not drawing conclusions, just asking questions.

Just stick with the actual facts and you are going to end up with the right conclusions.

It is unlikely that the flight crew could see the light bulbs anywhere since they were above two or three cloud layers plus an overcast.  However, they probably meant they could see the glow from those light bulbs through the clouds.  And the Portland/Vancouver area was built out sufficiently in 1971 for that to happen.

Now about those oscillations, Cooper would have to get down below the aft stair hinge point to lower the stairs sufficiently so that he could throw out the items he didn't want to attach to himself.  This would include such things as the briefcase and its contents.  Even going down a couple of steps past that hinge point is going to lower the stairs enough to create pressure changes in the cabin that would be noticeable in the cockpit cabin altitude instrument.

After cleaning up his cabin area, and either forgetting his tie or being unable to locate it, Cooper was ready to jump with the backpack parachute, money bag, and maybe other things tied to himself.  But this time, he goes way down the steps as far as he can, perhaps to the very end of the stairs, and jumps.  Cooper's weight on the stairs will not lower them to the same degree as they are lowered on the ground.  But when Cooper steps off those stairs they slam up into their closed position but don't lock there.  They open slightly and are kept in that position by the 194-knot airstream for the rest of the flight to Reno.  There is nothing to create further oscillations in the cabin pressure or to cause a bump.  End of story and Soderlind gives that time as not later than 8:12 PM PST.     

This isn't really an answer to my questions. You re-stated everything I had already said, and then added "Soderlind said so." at the end.

Regarding lights of Portland:  In his FBI statement, Rataczak does not say anything about lights. Again, I'm not sure that the Highland, WA area would be reasonably considered a "suburb of Portland" or in the "immediate vicinity" of Portland.

Also, I removed your unnecessary insult at the beginning of your post. Mockery, insults, bullying, and disrespect are no longer tolerated here. There are other forums where that sort of thing is allowed and even encouraged. This isn't one them.

Consider yourself respectfully warned.

That was not an insult.  You seem to be hypersensitive about everything.

On the matter of the lights, the flight crew could see the glow from Portland/Vancouver by looking horizontally.  They would not have to be looking straight down.

In your area, the glow of the lights from Miami can probably easily be seen through non-storm clouds from 50+ miles away. 

On a clear night, I understand that aircraft flying at 30,000+ feet or so can see the entire east coast of the USA lights from several hundred miles away.  I have personally witnessed rocket launches from the California coast from 400+ miles away while I was on the ground with the rocket on its first stage and there were some clouds between us.   

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In Rataczak's statement to the FBI, he is quoted as saying "they had not yet reached Portland proper, but were definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity thereof."

Not sure where the "could see the lights of Portland" statement comes from?

Regardless, assuming the 8:11 time for the bump is accurate, would the FBI dropzone be considered the "suburbs of Portland" or the "immediate vicinity".  I'm not sure it would be characterized that way today, let alone in 1971 when the area was not as built out.

My point is that the timeline of events and reports don't seem to make sense given the accepted FBI dropzone. Again, not drawing conclusions, just asking questions.

Just stick with the actual facts and you are going to end up with the right conclusions.

It is unlikely that the flight crew could see the light bulbs anywhere since they were above two or three cloud layers plus an overcast.  However, they probably meant they could see the glow from those light bulbs through the clouds.  And the Portland/Vancouver area was built out sufficiently in 1971 for that to happen.

Now about those oscillations, Cooper would have to get down below the aft stair hinge point to lower the stairs sufficiently so that he could throw out the items he didn't want to attach to himself.  This would include such things as the briefcase and its contents.  Even going down a couple of steps past that hinge point is going to lower the stairs enough to create pressure changes in the cabin that would be noticeable in the cockpit cabin altitude instrument.

After cleaning up his cabin area, and either forgetting his tie or being unable to locate it, Cooper was ready to jump with the backpack parachute, money bag, and maybe other things tied to himself.  But this time, he goes way down the steps as far as he can, perhaps to the very end of the stairs, and jumps.  Cooper's weight on the stairs will not lower them to the same degree as they are lowered on the ground.  But when Cooper steps off those stairs they slam up into their closed position but don't lock there.  They open slightly and are kept in that position by the 194-knot airstream for the rest of the flight to Reno.  There is nothing to create further oscillations in the cabin pressure or to cause a bump.  End of story and Soderlind gives that time as not later than 8:12 PM PST.     

This isn't really an answer to my questions. You re-stated everything I had already said, and then added "Soderlind said so." at the end.

Regarding lights of Portland:  In his FBI statement, Rataczak does not say anything about lights. Again, I'm not sure that the Highland, WA area would be reasonably considered a "suburb of Portland" or in the "immediate vicinity" of Portland.

Also, I removed your unnecessary insult at the beginning of your post. Mockery, insults, bullying, and disrespect are no longer tolerated here. There are other forums where that sort of thing is allowed and even encouraged. This isn't one them.

Consider yourself respectfully warned.

That was not an insult.  You seem to be hypersensitive about everything.

On the matter of the lights, the flight crew could see the glow from Portland/Vancouver by looking horizontally.  They would not have to be looking straight down.

In your area, the glow of the lights from Miami can probably easily be seen through non-storm clouds from 50+ miles away. 

On a clear night, I understand that aircraft flying at 30,000+ feet or so can see the entire east coast of the USA lights from several hundred miles away.  I have personally witnessed rocket launches from the California coast from 400+ miles away while I was on the ground with the rocket on its first stage and there were some clouds between us.

I have no doubt that surface lights are visible from 10 or even 30,000 feet. I guess my question would be: assuming the jump happened at 8:11 +/- ~1 minute, would Rataczak have been able to look out the window and say "that looks like the suburbs of Portland" or the "immediate vicinity of Portland"? That's a minimum of 10 miles from condensed surface light TODAY, let alone 50 years ago. 

I suppose it's possible...

Under the conditions that existed on November 24, 1971, Rataczak, Scott, and Anderson would be able to see the glow from the lights in the Portland/Vancouver area from some distance away.  The visibility on the ground at Portland International Airport was reported as about 10+ miles (it was not exactly measured and was probably greater) and the visibility between cloud layers was probably about the same.

I lived in the Phoenix area for quite a few years and the visibility at Sky Harbor Airport was typically given as 10 miles.  But on those days with 10 miles of visibility, I could typically see 40, 50, or 60 miles while driving down the freeway.

Persistent pesky questions about them stairs and the oscillations and bump...

...going down a couple of steps past that hinge point is going to lower the stairs enough to create pressure changes in the cabin that would be noticeable in the cockpit cabin altitude instrument...     ...this time, he goes way down the steps as far as he can, perhaps to the very end of the stairs, and jumps.  Cooper's weight on the stairs will not lower them to the same degree as they are lowered on the ground.  But when Cooper steps off those stairs they slam up into their closed position but don't lock there...     

In that clip from the Treat Williams movie, when the stunt guy jumps off the stairs, they retract very slightly and slowly. They certainly don't 'slam' shut, even momentarily. I would imagine the pilot could feel a bit of change on the pitch influence, but I don't see it re-sealing the cabin momentarily and causing a pressure event. For the stairs to behave in the way described, I would guess that Cooper would have to have pulled the emergency release, which should disconnect them from the hydraulic system and allow them to free-float. But I'm told that did not happen, that he did not pull the emergency release. So would there be that much variable from plane to plane, how much the stair door would be able to move while still connected to (dampened by) the hydraulic system?  ...??

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Persistent pesky questions about them stairs and the oscillations and bump...

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...going down a couple of steps past that hinge point is going to lower the stairs enough to create pressure changes in the cabin that would be noticeable in the cockpit cabin altitude instrument...     ...this time, he goes way down the steps as far as he can, perhaps to the very end of the stairs, and jumps.  Cooper's weight on the stairs will not lower them to the same degree as they are lowered on the ground.  But when Cooper steps off those stairs they slam up into their closed position but don't lock there...     

In that clip from the Treat Williams movie, when the stunt guy jumps off the stairs, they retract very slightly and slowly. They certainly don't 'slam' shut, even momentarily. I would imagine the pilot could feel a bit of change on the pitch influence, but I don't see it re-sealing the cabin momentarily and causing a pressure event. For the stairs to behave in the way described, I would guess that Cooper would have to have pulled the emergency release, which should disconnect them from the hydraulic system and allow them to free-float. But I'm told that did not happen, that he did not pull the emergency release. So would there be that much variable from plane to plane, how much the stair door would be able to move while still connected to (dampened by) the hydraulic system?  ...??

I don't have a good answer for that either. I have heard different things - the stairs hydraulics were not deployed and the stairs were freefloating and vice versa. Regardless, it seems that the pressure bump was simulated during the drop test in January 1972.

Here is what I do know:  the cabin rate of climb and descent gauge uses a sensor in the cabin to measure cabin pressure altitude. During an unpressurized flight - like the Cooper hijacking for example - it will read approximately the altitude that the aircraft is at. It will respond just like the flight altimeter - going up and down with the aircraft.

I propose that the 727 was experiencing what's known as a phugoid.

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If the plane was experiencing a phugoid, that would be reflected as oscillations in the cabin rate of climb indicator. I think the slow extension of the airstairs by Cooper caused phugoid oscillations in the aircraft that the crew noticed on the gauges. When Cooper jumped, the crew experienced a pressure bump - a rather well-known phenomenon in aviation when the pressure of the cabin increases dramatically - that usually causes your ears to "pop". When that happened, the airstairs were no longer descending and the aircraft stabilized from its phugoid.

Thus, while both phenomena - the phugoid oscillations and the pressure bump - were caused by Cooper's behavior on the airstairs, they were distinct things. Whether the crew, the airline flight ops, or the FBI understood the difference when it happened or immediately after is the question.

Chaucer, as an aeronautical engineer my main time was in flight dynamics which included aircraft performance and stability and control.  Longitudinal aircraft stability involves a short period mode and a longer mode called the phugoid.

The short period mode is typically completely damped out within a couple of seconds and is not generally noticeable to the pilot.  I have never noticed anything that I could identify as the short period mode in flying powered general aviation aircraft and unpowered sailplanes.

I have more than 1000 hours of flying time in unpowered sailplanes which spend about 90 percent or more of their time in maneuvering flight.  Consequently, for sailplanes, it is desired that the longitudinal stability be essentially zero.  This means that when the pilot takes his hand off the stick the sailplane will diverge longitudinal as well as about the other two axes.  Longitudinally, this divergence is the phugoid and it will never dampen itself out.  Without corrections by the pilot the sailplane will end up in a spiral and if it stalls it will spin.  Long flights in sailplanes can be very tiring.  My longest flight sailplane flight was about 7 hours and 20 minutes.  After landing, it took me at least 5 minutes to get out of the cockpit and stand up and I felt lousy the next day.

Powered aircraft, even fighter aircraft, generally spend about 90 percent or more of their time in straight and level flight.  Again, the short period mode dampens out in only a few seconds.  But the phugoid mode may take 4, 5, 6, or more minutes, repeat minutes, to dampen out naturally if it ever does so.  Hand flying early jet airliners at high altitudes was particularly tiring for the pilots due to the phugoid.  Consequently, the autopilots were typically activated as soon as possible after takeoff and stayed on until the descent for landing.

But the phugoid simply cannot explain the cabin pressure altitude oscillations or the bump when the stairs hit the fuselage when Cooper jumped.  It is just not possible.

Chaucer, the above is not an insult.       

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Persistent pesky questions about them stairs and the oscillations and bump...

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...going down a couple of steps past that hinge point is going to lower the stairs enough to create pressure changes in the cabin that would be noticeable in the cockpit cabin altitude instrument...     ...this time, he goes way down the steps as far as he can, perhaps to the very end of the stairs, and jumps.  Cooper's weight on the stairs will not lower them to the same degree as they are lowered on the ground.  But when Cooper steps off those stairs they slam up into their closed position but don't lock there...     

In that clip from the Treat Williams movie, when the stunt guy jumps off the stairs, they retract very slightly and slowly. They certainly don't 'slam' shut, even momentarily. I would imagine the pilot could feel a bit of change on the pitch influence, but I don't see it re-sealing the cabin momentarily and causing a pressure event. For the stairs to behave in the way described, I would guess that Cooper would have to have pulled the emergency release, which should disconnect them from the hydraulic system and allow them to free-float. But I'm told that did not happen, that he did not pull the emergency release. So would there be that much variable from plane to plane, how much the stair door would be able to move while still connected to (dampened by) the hydraulic system?  ...??

I don't have a good answer for that either. I have heard different things - the stairs hydraulics were not deployed and the stairs were freefloating and vice versa. Regardless, it seems that the pressure bump was simulated during the drop test in January 1972.

Here is what I do know:  the cabin rate of climb and descent gauge uses a sensor in the cabin to measure cabin pressure altitude. During an unpressurized flight - like the Cooper hijacking for example - it will read approximately the altitude that the aircraft is at. It will respond just like the flight altimeter - going up and down with the aircraft.

I propose that the 727 was experiencing what's known as a phugoid.

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If the plane was experiencing a phugoid, that would be reflected as oscillations in the cabin rate of climb indicator. I think the slow extension of the airstairs by Cooper caused phugoid oscillations in the aircraft that the crew noticed on the gauges. When Cooper jumped, the crew experienced a pressure bump - a rather well-known phenomenon in aviation when the pressure of the cabin increases dramatically - that usually causes your ears to "pop". When that happened, the airstairs were no longer descending and the aircraft stabilized from its phugoid.

Thus, while both phenomena - the phugoid oscillations and the pressure bump - were caused by Cooper's behavior on the airstairs, they were distinct things. Whether the crew, the airline flight ops, or the FBI understood the difference when it happened or immediately after is the question.

Chaucer, as an aeronautical engineer my main time was in flight dynamics which included aircraft performance and stability and control.  Longitudinal aircraft stability involves a short period mode and a longer mode called the phugoid.

The short period mode is typically completely damped out within a couple of seconds and is not generally noticeable to the pilot.  I have never noticed anything that I could identify as the short period mode in flying powered general aviation aircraft and unpowered sailplanes.

I have more than 1000 hours of flying time in unpowered sailplanes which spend about 90 percent or more of their time in maneuvering flight.  Consequently, for sailplanes, it is desired that the longitudinal stability be essentially zero.  This means that when the pilot takes his hand off the stick the sailplane will diverge longitudinal as well as about the other two axes.  Longitudinally, this divergence is the phugoid and it will never dampen itself out.  Without corrections by the pilot the sailplane will end up in a spiral and if it stalls it will spin.  Long flights in sailplanes can be very tiring.  My longest flight sailplane flight was about 7 hours and 20 minutes.  After landing, it took me at least 5 minutes to get out of the cockpit and stand up and I felt lousy the next day.

Powered aircraft, even fighter aircraft, generally spend about 90 percent or more of their time in straight and level flight.  Again, the short period mode dampens out in only a few seconds.  But the phugoid mode may take 4, 5, 6, or more minutes, repeat minutes, to dampen out naturally if it ever does so.  Hand flying early jet airliners at high altitudes was particularly tiring for the pilots due to the phugoid.  Consequently, the autopilots were typically activated as soon as possible after takeoff and stayed on until the descent for landing.

Flying a sailplane sounds like fun. Too bad I'm a nervous flyer. Go figure.

But the phugoid simply cannot explain the cabin pressure altitude oscillations or the bump when the stairs hit the fuselage when Cooper jumped.  It is just not possible.

First, in my post I said that the phugoid would explain the cabin pressure oscillations, but NOT the bump. The bump, I think as has been clearly shown, is caused by the door swinging back up after Cooper jumped.

Second, since this would appear to be your area of expertise, I would hope you could explain why a phugoid mode can't explain the oscillations in the cabin pressure rate of climb. I may be wrong about it, and I only offered it up as a possibility. At its face, it appears to make sense. Rather than simply tell me it's not possible, tell me why.

Where do we get that Cooper was even wearing a parachute when Tina last saw him? Is that from Tosaw's interview or something? Unless I'm mistaken and I've read them many times recently, neither of her FBI interviews mention her seeing him actually wearing a chute. Just trying to figure out if the last time she saw him whether or not he had put on his chute yet. We all seem to assume that I'm struggling to actually find that.

Tina gave a statement to the FBI that she saw Cooper put on one of the backpack parachutes like he knew what he was doing.  This was while the airliner was still on the ground at SEATAC.  Tina's comments were documented very early in the investigation.

When Cooper told Tina that she could go to the cockpit, just a few minutes after the takeoff from SEATAC, he also told her to close the curtain between the first class and rear portion of the cabin.  As Tina was closing that curtain, she had her last look at Cooper and stated that he was tieing some of the shroud lines from the reserve pack that was left on the aircraft around his waist.  This can only mean that Cooper still had on the parachute and that it was over his raincoat.