Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.4%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.9%)
100 Cooper lived
24 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 59

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Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1744852 times)

Offline haggarknew

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7785 on: May 30, 2022, 11:44:37 AM »
       He might have known the stall speed? The speed he requested was just above stall speed wasn't it?
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Offline Jack

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7786 on: May 30, 2022, 12:37:58 PM »
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As an aside, he was familiar with the Sea-Tac region from the air which would indicate he had flown over that area quite a bit.

If you're talking about his pointing out of the McChord Air force base, I don't think that is necessarily an indication of having flown over that area quite a bit.
He has knowledge of the air force base, and I'm sure it wouldn't have been too difficult to pick it out from the air, even if you had never flown over it before.

It's possible that his pointing out of Mcchord actually
may point to his lack of commercial Flight travel over
that area.
If he had flown over the area quite a bit, I would think there would be no reason for him to be pointing it out as he would assume most others have already seen and know about it.

Either that or he is (has been) a teacher of some sort and can't resist thinking he's teaching someone something.





« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 12:39:11 PM by Jack »
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Offline nickyb233

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7787 on: May 30, 2022, 01:04:17 PM »
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""Did not know how to actually lower stairs.""

I think we should define this one some more.
Cooper did not know how to lower the stairs in a commercial civilian plane.
He requested that they release the stairs from the pilot's cabin.
This is how the 727's adapted for military use released their aft stairs.

This shows that Cooper's knowledge seems to come from personal military experience, or from personal military knowledge, or from a second hand military source.

Jack

The problem with that is the 727-C which Southern Air Transport owned/operated out of Yakota AFB in Japan and was used for covert missions... dropping agents in china during the vietnam war... this 727-C did not have any kind of a switch in the cockpit to operate the aft stairs. It had the same hydraulic control system config as the 100. Air America the other CIA outfit did a cargo air drop experiment with the 727 where they actually removed the aft stairs and replaced it with a sheet metal ramp. This thing was not controlled by the AC's hydraulic system and also had no control from the cockpit. Air america also just used the 727-C to transport troops and cargo. So if cooper did make that comment about the cockpit controlling the aft stairs it doesn't seem to have come from experience with any military version of the 727. Does anybody here remember where that comment is referenced. Was it the Tina Debrief? I forgot...

Thanks

Nicky
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 01:50:05 PM by nickyb233 »
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Offline Jack

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7788 on: May 30, 2022, 01:10:04 PM »
Thanks for the info Nicky.

Do you have any thoughts as to where Cooper got the knowledge regarding the plane's ability to take off with the aft stairs lowered?
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Offline nickyb233

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7789 on: May 30, 2022, 01:23:16 PM »
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Thanks for the info Nicky.

Do you have any thoughts as to where Cooper got the knowledge regarding the plane's ability to take off with the aft stairs lowered?

I don't know if Boeing ever did a take off with them down during flight tests but that's one possibility.
I would say just from knowing the plane pretty intimately overall as the evidence suggests.
I think he knew the design and durability of the 727 and was confident it could handle it.
He was proven correct with a later incident involving a 727 known as the last flight out of Danang.



The Boeing 727-100 is one tough Bird

40 to 50% Overloaded with passengers

Can't take off from runway, forced to takeoff from taxiway

Has a grenade exploded under the left wing and damaged flaps

Leaking fuel

Multiple Mechanical Problems

Still made it from Da Nang to Saigon, 600 km away.

Nicky
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 01:27:25 PM by nickyb233 »
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7790 on: May 30, 2022, 01:39:09 PM »
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Thanks for the info Nicky.

Do you have any thoughts as to where Cooper got the knowledge regarding the plane's ability to take off with the aft stairs lowered?

It is unlikely that the information that the airliner could take off with the stairs lowered (but not locked down) came from a public source.  A commercial airliner would not attempt a take-off under those circumstances but would instead stay on the ground until the stairs had been repaired and retracted.

And during the Vietnam War, many or maybe most flights to and from SEA were staged through McChord AFB.  Any number of military and "other government organization" personnel would have some knowledge of that area.   
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7791 on: May 30, 2022, 06:17:24 PM »
Quote
He requested that they release the stairs from the pilot's cabin.
This is how the 727's adapted for military use released their aft stairs.


For any type of cargo or personnel drops the stairs were removed, the movable portion. the remaining fixed stairs were covered with sheet metal that allowed cargo and personnel to slide out the back of the plane. the stairs would be in the way and the first cargo out the back would rip them off the plane. no need for any type of control in the cockpit/.
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Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7792 on: May 30, 2022, 06:39:43 PM »
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""Did not know how to actually lower stairs.""

I think we should define this one some more.
Cooper did not know how to lower the stairs in a commercial civilian plane.
He requested that they release the stairs from the pilot's cabin.
This is how the 727's adapted for military use released their aft stairs.

This shows that Cooper's knowledge seems to come from personal military experience, or from personal military knowledge, or from a second hand military source.

Jack

The problem with that is the 727-C which Southern Air Transport owned/operated out of Yakota AFB in Japan and was used for covert missions... dropping agents in china during the vietnam war... this 727-C did not have any kind of a switch in the cockpit to operate the aft stairs. It had the same hydraulic control system config as the 100. Air America the other CIA outfit did a cargo air drop experiment with the 727 where they actually removed the aft stairs and replaced it with a sheet metal ramp. This thing was not controlled by the AC's hydraulic system and also had no control from the cockpit. Air america also just used the 727-C to transport troops and cargo. So if cooper did make that comment about the cockpit controlling the aft stairs it doesn't seem to have come from experience with any military version of the 727. Does anybody here remember where that comment is referenced. Was it the Tina Debrief? I forgot...

Thanks

Nicky

I have the link below bookmarked, I believe it is from this forum's vault/archive, it is titled:

New Cooper Info from Campbell FOIA type-written:

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Attached pic is from page 6.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7793 on: May 30, 2022, 06:46:02 PM »
A lot of controls on planes are done with wires..I don't see a need for the cockpit to control the stairs..I believe the loadmaster operates the opening and closing of doors and ramps..the pilots give the permissions since they know where they are located..

No need for any switch for the drops in Nam, stairs were removed..
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 06:52:50 PM by Shutter »
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Offline Jack

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7794 on: May 31, 2022, 03:09:26 AM »
Newbie to the forum question. I apologize if it's been asked and answered numerous times already.

Concerning the Tie:
Did a detailed chain of custody report accompany the tie when it was given over to the citizen group?

Thanks
Jack
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7795 on: May 31, 2022, 06:03:10 AM »
The chain of custody was broken long ago. it was mishandled decades ago by agents wearing the tie and possibly taking it home. evidence like this was treated much different vs today. they didn't see the value it could have back then with limited testing that could be done on the tie.

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Offline Jack

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7796 on: May 31, 2022, 07:52:09 AM »
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The chain of custody was broken long ago. it was mishandled decades ago by agents wearing the tie and possibly taking it home. evidence like this was treated much different vs today. they didn't see the value it could have back then with limited testing that could be done on the tie.

Thanks for the reply and information Shutter, much appreciated.

So what you are basically saying is that we don't even know for sure that the tie given to the citizen group was the actual tie from the airplane, let alone the personal tie of Cooper.

Jack
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7797 on: May 31, 2022, 11:37:06 AM »
Yup. That may be true, but the general consensus is that the tie is from Cooper. Whether he wore it everyday is another story.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7798 on: May 31, 2022, 11:44:25 AM »
It's the right tie, just very poor control of evidence.
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Offline nickyb233

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7799 on: May 31, 2022, 05:55:32 PM »
We may not have any credentials G but that doesn't mean we can't do a professional Job and get this thing solved.

Anyway BIG news on the tie particle front today from the citizen slueths 2.0

Tom during his CC18 Tie presentation asked the audience...

“If you come up with some reason why lead phosphate would come up on anyone’s tie, you should come talk to meâ€

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The team today discovered a technical report referencing a company called International Rustproof Company, then a division of Cleveland-based Lubrizol Corporation, they developed weldable lead phosphate in 1967 as a coating for steel.

Tom Kaye has co-signed this latest discovery.

TK: "That is a good find bravo! I would now say those particles likely are from steel coating and welding and are not a mystery any more."

This confirms what I've been saying for years that tie was around welding processes.

We are getting closer cooperites... reference links below.


Nicky



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« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 06:23:43 PM by Chaucer »
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